99 in CO vs an agro BTN

[BorisTheSpider]

BTN has typical TAG stats for the most part, but 3bets a good amount (17% or so).

Does anyone play this differently?

What if he shoves? (I've given him a generic 7% range for shoving given the wide 3bet range, on that basis we can just about call the $23 he has behind into what would be a $30 pot as we have 46% equity, but the 7% is a wild-assed-guess).

Button ($25.25)
SB ($24.70)
BB ($20.67)
UTG ($26.87)
MP ($17.29)
Hero (CO) ($91.68)

Preflop: Hero is CO with 9, 9
2 folds, Hero bets $0.75, Button raises to $2.25, 2 folds, Hero raises to $4.50

[OngBonga]

This looks like a spot I'd have a lot of trouble with. I don't like calling oop vs someone who 3bets 17% unless I intend to station down non ace boards. 3b'ing looks bad when he continues. Folding seems horrible. I'm stuck.

I know this much, I'm moving table after this hand. I don't want this guy directly to my left.

[Savy]

Learn to adjust. He probably gets away with having a ridiculous 3betting range because
1) people don't tighten up their opening range against him (therefore fold too much)
2) people don't 4bet bluff him enough (therefore fold too much)
3) people assume because he's 3betting wide he's 5betting wide when there is no reason to assume this (therefore stack off too light)

It's a spot where you have to be aware of your range and how you play it.

[OngBonga]

My problem is that I want to minimise the 4b and 5b pots I'm oop in, I'd rather be in position more often than out. That isn't happening vs this guy in these seats. I'm happy to 4b bluff this guy if I'm in position. If I 4b bluff oop and he calls, I have to cbet 100%, knowing nothing more about his range than I was told pre. Our seat sucks and it's costing us equity. Move table imo, this isn't about adjusting, it's about position.

[BorisTheSpider]

Ong - it's zoom, so yeah, I certainly wouldn't want to sit to his right on an ordinary table.

Savy - ref 1, yeah, I'd tighten up some, but I can't open fold this in the CO unless it was an ordinary table and he's been sat to my left beating up on me for hours, and even then I might rather open intending to 4bet shove it.

Ref point 2, I think this is a horrible hand to 4bet as a bluff, even IP (although that would be preferable to play a flop OOP with it) - even if he's not crazy agro when it comes to what he'll get it in with, I don't think we're making much that beats us fold, and once we've 4bet there's enough dead money that we're getting odds to call a shove unless your point 3 really applies strongly and he only gets it in with the very top of his range.

That's why I hate the hand so much - I don't like to just fold to the 3bet, and I don't like my 4bet unless I'm comfortable getting the money in - as it happened I folded, because: "3) people assume because he's 3betting wide he's 5betting wide when there is no reason to assume this (therefore stack off too light)". That's why I said in the OP that my 7% 5-bet range for him was a wild-assed-guess, and we only just have equity to call if it's correct - I think you're right and more often than not he's going to be a lot tighter than that when it comes to stacking off, even though he 3bets like a monkey, so then we've got to fold.

I dunno, maybe there's no good answer, but you make some interesting points, and maybe if I'm reading them right you like the 4bet line without being willing to get the money in. Certainly I don't mind my line with a hand like AJ or 66, but with nines it seems like a waste of a hand.

[Savy]

No, I'm suggesting you take a look at your range and think about where hands fit in and why. If he's 3betting this much I think calling is probably fine w/99 as long as you have some protection in your calling range.

4betting 99 is basically turning it into a bluff, which I don't see any reason to.

My point was more you need to have a more well defined 4bet bluff range in this spot and I also forgot to add that you should increase your 4bet value range too.

[BorisTheSpider]

Thanks for the further clarification. I'd like to just talk a bit more about what you've said, to make sure I understand:

No, I'm suggesting you take a look at your range and think about where hands fit in and why. If he's 3betting this much I think calling is probably fine w/99 as long as you have some protection in your calling range.

When you say "protection in your calling range", do you mean some nutted stuff for balance, so that if I call here I'm not always tightly defined as "strong but not AA/KK/AK"?

4betting 99 is basically turning it into a bluff, which I don't see any reason to.

Agreed.

My point was more you need to have a more well defined 4bet bluff range in this spot and I also forgot to add that you should increase your 4bet value range too.

In a vacuum then, just going on his stats (since this was zoom, so there would be no table dynamic, and there is no particular history between villain and I), does this seem sensible:

4bet for value intending to call it off: [JJ+, AKs-AQs, AKo]
4bet as a bluff: [77-55, A2s-A5s, KJs-KTs, KJo]

Not saying those ranges are particularly well thought through, and I will do some more thinking on this, but first I just want to confirm that I'm understanding you correctly in general.

[Savy]

1)When you say "protection in your calling range", do you mean some nutted stuff for balance, so that if I call here I'm not always tightly defined as "strong but not AA/KK/AK"?

2)In a vacuum then, just going on his stats (since this was zoom, so there would be no table dynamic, and there is no particular history between villain and I), does this seem sensible:

4bet for value intending to call it off: [JJ+, AKs-AQs, AKo]
4bet as a bluff: [77-55, A2s-A5s, KJs-KTs, KJo]

1)Yes, things along them lines. However be aware that this is only really required against thinking villains where you should always have some balance because otherwise you are just capping your range and people will fire bets at you relentlessly and make your life hard.

2)We want to be bluffing with equity against his range. To have equity against his range we first of all want to block his continuing range as much as possible, block as little of his folding range as possible and have hands that flop well where we can continue applying pressure. Betting with equity is so much >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> betting without equity.

How you go about doing this depends on what type of ranges you perceive villains to have, there are lots of 3bet/4bet/5bet articles out there that explain all of this in much better detail than I am going to, so I suggest reading a few of them.

[BorisTheSpider]

block his continuing range as much as possible, block as little of his folding range as possible and have hands that flop well where we can continue applying pressure.

Thanks for the clarification. I see what you mean about blockers - it's something I don't think about enough. So like [ATs, A5s-A2s, KJs-KTs, KQo] looks better than what I initially suggested as a 4-bet bluffing range, since it blocks tons of aces, lots of kings, and often flops enough equity to continue applying pressure.

I'll do some more reading.