To cbet or not to cbet?

[Micro2Macro]

I think you should absolutely cbet here when you have a BDFD. AKo may be a check, but if you're going to bet any AK combos this should be in your betting range.

Checking AK on this board will have you c/fing to weaker Ax or worse that bluffs, and small pairs betting will have you c/fing and not realizing any of your equity. If villain is really passive though checking may be greater than the EV of betting.

Cliffs: If you don't bet AhKh here wtf are you bluffing with

[seven-deuce]

I think you should absolutely cbet here when you have a BDFD. AKo may be a check, but if you're going to bet any AK combos this should be in your betting range.

Checking AK on this board will have you c/fing to weaker Ax or worse that bluffs, and small pairs betting will have you c/fing and not realizing any of your equity. If villain is really passive though checking may be greater than the EV of betting.

Cliffs: If you don't bet AhKh here wtf are you bluffing with

I was thinking i would bluff TT here but i think that's bad when re-thinking things, i think you may be right about c-betting here. I suppose i could get most of his jacks to fold to two barrels not to mention his smaller PP's, assuming they are in his pre-flop range of course. Also their are quit a few turns that will increase my pot equity as well.

I think i'd be check folding AhKh before check-calling with it, without performing any calculations because i'd be here all day for one, i would assume the EV of check folding 0 would be better than check calling, i think check calling would be -EV.

Thanks for the reply btw, i now am sure i should have c-bet and barreled good turns. I never even noticed that i didn't have a c-bet bluff range either.

[Micro2Macro]

I was thinking i would bluff TT here but i think that's bad when re-thinking things, i think you may be right about c-betting here. I suppose i could get most of his jacks to fold to two barrels not to mention his smaller PP's, assuming they are in his pre-flop range of course. Also their are quit a few turns that will increase my pot equity as well.

I think i'd be check folding AhKh before check-calling with it, without performing any calculations because i'd be here all day for one, i would assume the EV of check folding 0 would be better than check calling, i think check calling would be -EV.

Thanks for the reply btw, i now am sure i should have c-bet and barreled good turns. I never even noticed that i didn't have a c-bet bluff range either.

just to be clear, folding is neutral (0) EV, but checking isn't 0 EV. you realize some equity when you check. Depending on how aggressive villain is this will start close to 0 if he is betting heavily into you with near 100% frequency, and will go up as he he checks a larger portion of his range.

visualize it as a spectrum:

0EV realized = villain betting 100% and you folding - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 'some amount' of EV realized from villain checking down - - - - - - - - - - realizing your full amount of pot equity vs villains range by checking down 100% to river (which given your assumptions is 32.089%)

when you check call you put money into the pot, which may be + or - EV depending on villains range tendencies etc etc.

you seem right on intuitively when you feel c/c is -ev. ive modeled a spot similar to this just recently which leads me to the same conclusion thus in game I would not c/c AK here in a vacuum unless I had very specific reason to support it, though its all depending on what villains range is and how he plays it and how much attention and thought he's putting into to analyzing your play. (so far beyond the scope of this thread...)

[seven-deuce]

just to be clear, folding is neutral (0) EV, but checking isn't 0 EV. you realize some equity when you check. Depending on how aggressive villain is this will start close to 0 if he is betting heavily into you with near 100% frequency, and will go up as he he checks a larger portion of his range.

visualize it as a spectrum:

0EV realized = villain betting 100% and you folding - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 'some amount' of EV realized from villain checking down - - - - - - - - - - realizing your full amount of pot equity vs villains range by checking down 100% to river (which given your assumptions is 32.089%)

when you check call you put money into the pot, which may be + or - EV depending on villains range tendencies etc etc.

you seem right on intuitively when you feel c/c is -ev. ive modeled a spot similar to this just recently which leads me to the same conclusion thus in game I would not c/c AK here in a vacuum unless I had very specific reason to support it, though its all depending on what villains range is and how he plays it and how much attention and thought he's putting into to analyzing your play. (so far beyond the scope of this thread...)

Wow, great post thanks.

I just discovered the logic behind never open folding.

We would be choosing an inferior option. If we check we are allowing ourselves to realize some EV if villain checks as well, worst case scenario we check villain bets and we fold and realize 0EV, which is the same as folding outright anyway. So we are in effect sacrificing some EV by folding outright and the more we do it the more we sacrifice and it all adds up and translates into $ in the long run.

Cool, the past few days i can feel how i view poker changing, it's simply a game where the objective is to choose the option that yields the most EV or from the other extreme loses the least EV.

Just to note i don't open fold. Although i never had a full understanding of why you shouldn't, now i do.

[griffey24]

By default, this type of board is a pretty big disaster for us and hits villain's range a lot harder than ours.

In general I would c/f AK here, but I agree with M2M than if we want to be cbetting some overs here then AK with BDFD's are good.

That still only represents 3 out of the 16 possible combos of AK, so it's not like we'd be getting out of line.