NLHE Rule Check

[DoubleJ]

Hello Chaps,

this happened to me twice tonight; once PF and once OTF.

• 3 players left in the hand
• short-stack goes all-in
• next player calls the all-in, but has $$$ behind still
• i'm only given the options to Fold or Call the all-in, even though i have $$$ still behind too

is this right?

[Icanhastreebet]

You can still raise unless the short stacks last raise wasn't a full raise.
Blinds 1/2
You bet 12$, shortstack shoves in 12$+11$, guy calls, you cannot raise in this situation.
You bet 12$, shortstacks shoves in 12$+>12$, guy calls, you can raise in this situation.

[DoubleJ]

thanks yaawn,

yeh, situation 1 sums it up.

what's the reason for this, anyone know? rilly threw me...

[MadMojoMonkey]

If the shove is not at least the min to count as a raise, then you can't re-raise, because the overshove was technically not a "bet".

[DoubleJ]

OK, cheers 3M

it seems kinda weird to me coz the other 2 players are forced to see another card if they want to continue, whereas for the shortie it's academic as he's done with betting whatever happens.

it also means that if we're leading out in a spot like this we can only raise to >=50% of the shortstack to ensure that this doesn't occur

or am i missing something?

[MadMojoMonkey]

So you're saying:
With the right bet, we can intentionally price the shortie in for a shove, while preventing the other villains from re-raising, when we're OOP in a multi-handed pot.

I never thought of it that way, but that seems correct to me.

[rong]

That'sactually pretty smart thinking.

[DoubleJ]

errr....OK, pretend i never said it then

[Stacks]

OK, cheers 3M

it seems kinda weird to me coz the other 2 players are forced to see another card if they want to continue, whereas for the shortie it's academic as he's done with betting whatever happens.

it also means that if we're leading out in a spot like this we can only raise to >=50% of the shortstack to ensure that this doesn't occur

or am i missing something?

Not exactly sure what you are saying, but the other player to act after the shorties shove, can still re-raise if he wants (I think). While the shorties shove isn't a full raise, the other villain still hasn't acted, and can re-raise himself. If he calls however, all you can do is call/fold, since the shorties shove isn't a minimum raise.

So say you lead for $10, shorty shoves for $18 total ($8 more to you), another villain left to act could raise ($26 or more I believe), but if he calls, you can only call the $8 or fold.

Having a shorty likely to shove can add for some interesting betsizing choices in spots. Such as betting an amount less than 50% of the shorties stack, so that when he shoves it re-opens the action for you to re-raise, trapping additional money from other villains in the pot. Example: You bet, villain calls, shorty shoves, you shove, villain folds. Which wouldn't have been possible had you bet >50% of the shorties stack, as you would bet, villain call, shorty shove, you can only call/fold, giving other villain very good odds to call.

[DoubleJ]

Not exactly sure what you are saying...

well, nor am i, hence the OP. i just don't know wot the rule is.

so between wot u and yaawn say - - - if i raise and shorty shoves to less than a full raise, it's deemed to be a call. and if any of the players left to act after just call the mini-shove and no-one re-raises, then i can only call or fold on that street.

is that right?

[Stacks]

Well I wouldn't think it would be deemed a call. But yes, that's correct. If the shorties shove isn't a full raise, the betting isn't re-opened for you, and you will only be able to call/fold, unless another villain reopens the action by raising over the shorties shove.

[DoubleJ]

Thanks Stacks

[fucken weird tho...]

[Weissr]

[fucken weird tho...]

Not really... That's why it's called a 'min raise'; ie. you have to raise a minimum amount for it to be considered a 'raise', and only a raise opens up the action to someone after they have called.

In your original post example, you would have called a bet, before the small stack pushed all-in (less than a min raise), so without another min raise or more in there, you can only call or fold.

So with 3 players it would go: p1 bet, p2 call, p3 small shove (for more than prev bet, but less than min raise) --> now p1 and p2 can only call or fold.

It is kind of shocking though when you look down and the raise button is missing

*Edited, thx jyms*

[jyms]

It is kind of shocking though when you look down and the raise button is missing, especially if your plan was to check raise.

Mutli way this can't happen. You always get your chance to bet. If you check and other player bets and shorty shoves, you can still raise or shove since you still haven't bet