[5NL] QTs on BTN

[mondayscool]

Villain is 11/7 over 509 hands.

Poker Stars, $0.02/$0.05 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 9 Players

MP3: $4.28 (85.6 bb)
CO: $8.13 (162.6 bb)
Hero (BTN): $12.50 (250 bb)
SB: $4.80 (96 bb)
BB: $18.25 (365 bb)
UTG+1: $4 (80 bb)
UTG+2: $6.16 (123.2 bb)
MP1: $1.96 (39.2 bb)
MP2: $2.20 (44 bb)

Preflop: Hero is BTN with T Q
6 folds, Hero raises to $0.15, SB calls $0.13, BB folds

Flop: ($0.35) Q 3 9 (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $0.20, SB raises to $0.50, Hero ??


REALLY lost with this one.

Does something like:

99,33,AsJs,As8-6s,KQs,KQo,AQo seem like a fairly accurate range for him here?

Also I think flop should've been bigger.

Also just moved up to 5NL so general tips for 5NL would be appreciated.

[rpm]

what are his fold/3b vs steal stats from the SB? he's probably too tight to even be calling with those lower suited aces from the blinds. i'd say the range you gave him would be the widest possible range. regardless, we are almost never in excellent shape. we only have 60% against the worst hand in his range (flush draws with one overcard) and most of his range is currently favourite vs us (33,99,AQ,KQ) so i'd say calling is our best option. he's likely to play pretty predictably on later streets anyway.

[rpm]

and yeah i probably prefer 0.25 or even 0.3 on the flop because we have position and lots of equity against the range he c/c's with (which is what i expect villain to do MOST of the time he continues to our CB) so we can set stacks up to put him in tougher spots/get him making more mistakes on later streets

[mondayscool]

His fold to steal was 81%, so he's not calling with a lot of ridiculous hands I don't think.

I think that a major weakness of mine is getting a lot of money in on the flop when it`s neither prudent nor profitable. I need to get it through my head that just calling is a +eV play sometimes.

edit: Oh and 3bet in SB is 2.5%

[daven]

looks fine
now call vs uber-nit

[Shotglass]

I'd prefer a bit bigger on both streets:
PF you've only got the blinds left so going to 4bb instead of three gives the blinds worse odds, and what is he really gonna call @ 3bb but fold to 4bb?
OTF I'd go a little over 2/3 pot.
But it's semantics --- 6 vs half dozen
Oh, and as played - call.

[rpm]

PF you've only got the blinds left so going to 4bb instead of three gives the blinds worse odds, and what is he really gonna call @ 3bb but fold to 4bb?

dont really like this idea. we typically want to adjust our open sizing down as we get closer to the button, because we will be opening a wider range and so want a better price on our steals/burn less money when we get 3bet (because the more hands we are opening the more we are exploitable vs aggression). especially vs nits in the blinds where most of our EV comes from them folding an absurdly high % preflop. we want to be opening as small a size as we can we get away with in order to give ourselves a cheap price on our steals. as best i understand it anyway.

if you are playing 25nl as loose/aggressively as you suggested in another thread somewhere then i can almost guarantee you are sacrificing EV if you open the button for 4x as a standard

[Shotglass]

dont really like this idea. we typically want to adjust our open sizing down as we get closer to the button, because we will be opening a wider range and so want a better price on our steals/burn less money when we get 3bet (because the more hands we are opening the more we are exploitable vs aggression). especially vs nits in the blinds where most of our EV comes from them folding an absurdly high % preflop. we want to be opening as small a size as we can we get away with in order to give ourselves a cheap price on our steals. as best i understand it anyway.

if you are playing 25nl as loose/aggressively as you suggested in another thread somewhere then i can almost guarantee you are sacrificing EV if you open the button for 4x as a standard

I don't want to hijack the thread and turn it into pf bet theory but I've gotta answer this^^^
Yeah...I read spoon's (and a few other's) posts on that as well.
Here's my questions...
Why would you want to open the bottom of your range to 3x or 4x when you're UTG and the whole table is left to act? You darn sure don't want to adjust your sizing based on hand strength (extremely exploitable) but I don't want to be paying 3.5x - 4x while holding 88 and run into QQ from MP2. I go 4x-5x otb down to ~2.5x UTG

When you're OTB why would you want to give the blinds the opportunity to make a correct decision by opening to 3x or less and they're priced into a call on a lot of crap...i.e. you open raise OTB to 2.5x; the pot now has 4x and the BB only needs to put in 1.5x to call; vs you open raise OTB to 5x, the pot now has 6.5x and the BB needs to put in 4x to call...which call is a mistake when holding 78s?

While I understand that by putting in 1 or 2bb less when otb then my winrate might improve slightly, I'd rather give the blinds the opportunity to make a bigger mistake and potentialy a huge mistake when he gets fed up with it and I'm actually holding a hand. If I'm not sitting on a decent hand and decide to fold to a pf 3b or aggression otf then the 4bb that I'm out has been more than covered by the blinds I've already stolen. Unless I'm mistaken we profit from our opponent's mistakes.

Edit: that's not the only thread on here that I've mentioned how loose I play preflop...I think that in a thread last year I mentioned that I open atc otb and co.

[Miffed22001]

Played fine so far - there are some opponents where this is a ship but seem here we are getting a decent price and villain is nitty so I'd call.

[DoubleJ]

Also just moved up to 5NL so general tips for 5NL would be appreciated.

Firstly, congrats on moving up - may you run good.

However, be aware that 5NL and above is a whole new world.

In my experience, 2NL is a lunatic asylum; you can beat it for a good WR just by having a starting-hands chart, raising pre-flop whenever you enter a pot, and cBetting like 100% of flops.

At 5NL:
* I ran into more "Reg" type players
* I lost a lot of $$$ to set-miners
* I had to fold a lot of opens to 3Bets
* I had to start thinking situationally, and not just look at the cards I got dealt.

This last one's the kicker - I believe a lot of the guys on this forum call it "playing poker". So if you're doing this already, you're on your way. I, of course, had to learn the hard way, and got stalled for a couple of months trying to play a static/formula game. So don't do that, eh?

[OngBonga]

I'd usually raise this and happily get stacks in but against this guy I think I call.

[mondayscool]

Firstly, congrats on moving up - may you run good.

However, be aware that 5NL and above is a whole new world.

In my experience, 2NL is a lunatic asylum; you can beat it for a good WR just by having a starting-hands chart, raising pre-flop whenever you enter a pot, and cBetting like 100% of flops.

At 5NL:
* I ran into more "Reg" type players
* I lost a lot of $$$ to set-miners
* I had to fold a lot of opens to 3Bets
* I had to start thinking situationally, and not just look at the cards I got dealt.

This last one's the kicker - I believe a lot of the guys on this forum call it "playing poker". So if you're doing this already, you're on your way. I, of course, had to learn the hard way, and got stalled for a couple of months trying to play a static/formula game. So don't do that, eh?

Thanks for the tips.

After getting slaughtered after my first few thousand hands I realized that I need to get a lot better at choosing the spots in which to get involved, it's not like 2NL where people call raises then fold 90% of the time on the flop... People are more likely to play back at you I think.

Another thing I noticed is I can't expect as high a win rate, and I can't let a lower win rate than at 2NL affect me psychologically. Crushing 2NL for like 20-25 bb/100, then moving up and seeing a dramatic drop at first had a very negative affect on me. But it's because of what you said, it's a whole new world moving out of the 'lunatic asylum' of 2NL.



Also in reference to the hand, thanks for the advice all. Call and re-eval on the turn and/or river.

[DoubleJ]

Thanks for the tips.

You're welcome for the tips. Liking your avatar, BTW. Where's it from?

I can't let a lower win rate than at 2NL affect me psychologically. Crushing 2NL for like 20-25 bb/100, then moving up and seeing a dramatic drop at first had a very negative affect on me.

Troo dat - just treat it as a wake-up call. 2NL is great for getting comfy w/ the fundamentals of Position, Aggression and Initiative, but there is sooooooo much more to learn. But you seem to have the right attitude, so....keep learning

...I need to get a lot better at choosing the spots in which to get involved...

KerChing! So what's your plan for this?

[mbiz]

I like to call because you have top pair and blockers to a better flush

[MadMojoMonkey]

This last one's the kicker - I believe a lot of the guys on this forum call it "playing poker".

You got a chuckle out of me on that one.

[DoubleJ]

And I continue to harbour the belief that you are secretly English

[surviva316]

...

Long story short, high SPR is king IP, whereas high SPRs suck OOP.

When UTG, you abuse the fact that you have a strong range, but abusing this gets tougher OOP the deeper you get because these hands usually just make strong single pair hands.

When OTB, you abuse the fact that you have strong position and a disguised range, even though your range isn't as strong. Because you ultimately control the size of the pot, you want there to be more wiggle room for making big pots when you gin and keeping it rink-a-dink when your 94o whiffs a bad cbetting board. It's tougher to abuse this advantage with a 9.5:1 SPR than it is to do with an 18:1 SPR.

Coolers don't really happen UTG vs. UTG+1 because UTG's range is so defined, so UTG has to get the money in as quickly as possible with as few bets as possible. In BUvBB, BB is like "Imma 6b shove flop with my 3rd nuts, if villain has a set here with his range so massive, then it's just a cooler."

[Micro2Macro]

this should be a call nearly 100% of the time unless you have a specific reason/read to believe that re-raising is more +EV than calling (you gotta have the guy be c/ring a wide range, which to have a wide range he has to defend his blind wide, and also think you are crazy and will rebluff with a wide range and/or get it in super light when he c/r's such that he reships lots of worse draws and even cib/folds to a cib 3bet) . you are only getting the money in bad by re-raising and calling will keep your opponents range as wide as possible (leaves his bluff combo's in for the turn + weaker value - in this case weaker value is very unlikely but we have good equity against made hands that are better than ours now) which is an important concept/idea that becomes more relevant the further up you move.

i guess that was wordy as fuck and i likely confused the shit out of all of u

[supa]

i guess that was wordy as fuck and i likely confused the shit out of all of u

Thought it was gold.

[mondayscool]

You're welcome for the tips. Liking your avatar, BTW. Where's it from?



Troo dat - just treat it as a wake-up call. 2NL is great for getting comfy w/ the fundamentals of Position, Aggression and Initiative, but there is sooooooo much more to learn. But you seem to have the right attitude, so....keep learning



KerChing! So what's your plan for this?

The avatar is from Archer Season 3 Episode 9 "Bloody Ferlin."

As far as a plan goes I guess play a LOT of hands and review where I'm consistently making mistakes and either stop playing in those situations or figure out how to play them better (?). That's really all I've come up with haha.

[bikes]

hero calls cause he has position and 1/3 of the deck is a great card for him/her w/e