4NL - AQo facing 3bet

[maverick007]

The villain is unknown.

Cake Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $0.04 BB (7 handed) - Cake-Poker Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

saw flop

UTG ($4.12)
MP1 ($4.06)
Hero (MP2) ($3.82)
CO ($2.17)
Button ($4.26)
SB ($3.26)
BB ($3.91)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with Q, A
2 folds, Hero bets $0.16, 1 fold, Button raises to $0.28, 2 folds, Hero calls $0.12

Flop: ($0.62) 9, 8, 3 (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets $0.31, Hero folds

Total pot: $0.62 | Rake: $0.04


Is it ever a good idea to donk on such flops ? Would you check raise this flop against an unknown?

[d0zer]

pre is questionable vs an unknown, but it's small enough that I don't mind a call. c/f is fine/std, no need to get crazy vs an unknown here.

[WeldPhaser]

Dozer can def tell ya the best here Mav, But since we're playing at same level I'll tell ya when/if you Donk this flop. Unless you spike the turn. you'll def be checking w/ more money in the pot.

I've gotten myself into these situations, not sure what to do on a low flop, and subsequent turn.. I'm just folding pre here now w/ no info..

[Petulie]

I'm not such a fan of pre either, I'd probably just fold - tons of reverse implied odds when you hit, and min raises are pretty terrifying (call me! call me!)

In the 3b pot here I wouldn't be playing back. If you were calling out of the blinds vs a loose open in late position, donking this flop vs someone who doesn't cbet much will prolly take it down often, or c/r vs someone who cbets far too much.

But yea, oop with reverse implied odds hand vs scary min3b, I'm folding.

[Fnord]

If I'm not folding pre-flop here, then I'm not folding this flop either.

[maverick007]

donking this flop vs someone who doesn't cbet much will prolly take it down often, or c/r vs someone who cbets far too much.

But yea, oop with reverse implied odds hand vs scary min3b, I'm folding.

Yeah, donking or c/r against a loose open in late position seems like a better line of approach.

But against an unknown, probably be on the safer side and c/f.

The problem is I've seen players flat preflop with QQ+, AK, AQ, and at other times, 3bet with JTs etc ..So unless I've got a read on my opponent, its best to play on the safe side.

[BorisTheSpider]

If I'm not folding pre-flop here, then I'm not folding this flop either.

Yeah, his sizing is wierd. I might fold pre, but would probably be tempted to call given the sizing, then I don't really think you can fold to a pretty weak sized flop bet on this flop - I'd just make it like $0.90 or a little bigger and give up if called and you don't improve on the turn.

[dranger7070]

Exact 1/2 pot sizing isn't that weird.

[BorisTheSpider]

Exact 1/2 pot sizing isn't that weird.

OK, point taken, but the min 3bet then just about the smallest possibly credible bet on the flop doesn't look that strong.

[daven]

fold is good pre, call isn't bad though cos of villain's sizing
check-fold flop without reads

[OngBonga]

OK, point taken, but the min 3bet then just about the smallest possibly credible bet on the flop doesn't look that strong.

I'd say the opposite, I'd say this line looks very strong indeed. AK rarely min 3bets, and when people 3bet bluff they don't tend to min 3bet either.

Make a note on this guy's sizing.

Oh, and fold pre to 3bet, we're crushed. Folding here shows discipline. Yes it's a small raise, but that's the point. We need to hit 2pr or better to be confident in our hand.

[Shotglass]

Is it ever a good idea to donk on such flops ? Would you check raise this flop against an unknown?

Wouldn't do either.

c/c flop and lead turn for about 2/3 pot.

[d0zer]

AK rarely min 3bets, and when people 3bet bluff they don't tend to min 3bet either.

Fish tend to have bad 3b sizing regardless of their hand, and aggressive fish will 3bet a 'strangely merged' range consistent with this sizing.

[bjsaust]

I'm pretty sure most of you are missing the point Fnord is making.

[maverick007]

Fnord,could you please elaborate ?

[bikes]

Wouldn't do either.

c/c flop and lead turn for about 2/3 pot.

what the fuck

[Fnord]

Fnord,could you please elaborate ?

If I think his pre-flop range is wide enough to continue with AQ, I'm going to continue on a lot of flops without an A or Q that I think missed hands like AT, KQ, AJ, etc.

Exactly what "continue" means depends on your opponent and game dynamics. I'm pretty sure you're giving up too much value check/folding every time you miss the flop so figure out something to do other than just fold.

[Shotglass]

what the fuck

problem??

[eugmac]

shotglass i also thought your line was bizzarre please explain it.

[Shotglass]

shotglass i also thought your line was bizzarre please explain it.

Just tryin to answer the OP's original question.

Is it ever a good idea to donk on such flops ? Would you check raise this flop against an unknown?

Villain is unkown, which works both ways - he doesn't know our tendencies.
Since we called his 3bet pf then I'm not folding this flop either but donking is horribad - It's not called a weak lead for no reason & a c/r just builds a pot in a hand that we're prolly way behind and oop.
c/c flop to float & leading the turn on any A, Q or
I may float both the flop and turn and try to take it from him on the river.

Edit: all of this ignores the fact that I really don't like the call preflop - only tries to answer the OP's ? about what to do now that we're in this

[Micro2Macro]

folding preflop would be absurd

[Shotglass]

I didn't say that I'd fold pre - I said that I didn't like the call.

I'll prolly get flamed for this but since we're oop, he's unknown and otb then I like a 4b pre.

[Micro2Macro]

the fact that we have no reads makes 4betting worse than calling

[ColdDecked]

Isn't this like a pretty standard spot to OOP float? So why not just x/c flop, x/f turn, and lead river if turn checks through?

[Fnord]

Isn't this like a pretty standard spot to OOP float?

I expect to have the best hand on this flop or 6 outs against the vast majority of a non-nitty 3-bet range. If I think his 3-bet range is too tight to think otherwise, I'm making a tight pre-flop fold face-down.

If I think I can get him off of JJ/TT then I'm check/raising here or running some other aggro monkey line.

[WeldPhaser]

I expect to have the best hand on this flop or 6 outs against the vast majority of a non-nitty 3-bet range. If I think his 3-bet range is too tight to think otherwise, I'm making a tight pre-flop fold face-down.

If I think I can get him off of JJ/TT then I'm check/raising here or running some other aggro monkey line.

So, w/ no reads. if we just call pre, can we really rep a hand to take an aggro monkey line on????

[bjsaust]

If I think his pre-flop range is wide enough to continue with AQ, I'm going to continue on a lot of flops without an A or Q that I think missed hands like AT, KQ, AJ, etc.

Exactly what "continue" means depends on your opponent and game dynamics. I'm pretty sure you're giving up too much value check/folding every time you miss the flop so figure out something to do other than just fold.

The important part here, is he's making his decisions for how he'll play the flop, before deciding what his action will be pre-flop. Theres too much focus on "we got to this spot somehow on the flop, now what?" in this thread. The decision point is pre-flop, not the flop. You should have few doubts what you'll do on most flops by the time you get there.

[mbiz]

So fnord you are basically saying that if you call the raise pre you do so because you thinhk you are ahead of his raising range, which the flop doesnt hit at all. So call flop, and then c/f turn? I dunno how a call pre is ok here since its messy postflop if he barrels..

(i havny played in a while but going to get back into it a little so i might sound pretty ignorant)

[surviva316]

If I'm not folding pre-flop here, then I'm not folding this flop either.

So we call pre and we put him on a merged range like TT+, AQ+, AJs because we have a prayer against that range getting odds where all we need is a prayer to continue. How do we profitably continue to this range out of position against an unknown facing a 1/2 PSB bet on this flop?

-OOP float seems bad because he'll check back the turn and call the river a lot with his TT-QQ.

-c/r'ing folds about 50% of his range (assuming he folds TT/JJ about as much as he continues with Ax), and then we still have ~20% equity against his continuing range (but we're far from guaranteed to get to the river since we're OOP).

-Donking without barrelling seems terrible on this board against this range, and I think barrelling's a pretty bad idea.

I think I like c/r'ing the most. I think this is probably fine for our entire range because we're going to play fit/fold with pocket pairs, we might fold AT pre, and we can flip a coin with AJ, so we're not monkeying around on this flop too much.

Does any of this help organize the conversation?