weird preflop situation 50nl

[rpm]

BU opener is 26/20 with a 44% ATS, 5% 3bet, 85% fold to 3b, and 0% 4bet. over ~150 hands.

BB is spastic fish who is tilted and pissed off at me. earlier in the session i fired two barrels with an OESD and folded to his river minraise. since that hand he has been 3betting my opens and raising my cbets at almost every opportunity he gets. i also correctly check/called him down 3 barrel bluffing when i had AK high which backed into a pair on the river. PT3 has him as 39/18 with an 11% 3bet over 50 hands or so.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (6 handed) - PokerStars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com
BB ($76)
UTG ($88.20)
MP ($63.80)
CO ($56.20)
Button ($50)
Hero (SB) ($81.45)
Preflop: Hero is SB with Q, Q
3 folds, Button bets $1.50, Hero calls $1.25, BB raises to $5.50, Button calls $4, Hero raises to $17.50, BB raises to $34, Button calls $28.50, Hero?

(BU has $16 left in stack, fish has ~$42)

i flat the open because the BU opens pretty wide, folds to 3bets a ton, and doesn't seem capable of 4b bluffing. plus i expect the fish to pop it a huge % of the time when he thinks i'm weak. once he does this i decide to 4b to give him some rope. i make it pretty large because we are ~150 deep and he probably has no idea what a standard 4b size is. the fish snap 5bets it (which is what i expected him to do a ton) and the reg flats.

i'm obviously stoked that the fish 5bet, and am more than happy to get it in versus him, but is the BU's 5b flatting range too strong to even continue? if so, does that make 4betting a mistake?

is flatting the BU open OK given reads/dynamic?
i assume 4betting to give the fish rope is pretty standard? sizing?
preferred reaction to fish's 5bet AND BU flat?

i get the feeling my question still isn't being expressed clearly enough but oh well. it's far better than it was.

[Mr. Diamond]

1st decision - I prefer 3bet - BB just clicking buttons, wants to punish you, has position - I think he will spazz a lot vs your 3bet - just build a pot, when you have it

2nd decision - I like

3rd decision - after BTN calls 5bet vs BB, its pretty obvious, that he has AA and at this point (no matter what BB has or what he will continue with) I don't think you have odds or FE to continue, so I would fold

[aka_red]

tldr; i know for me personally when i see 8 different hhs in one post i re-eval how much i want to post. imo adding your commentary in between each street makes it more difficult for me and possibly others to think about what they would have done. similar to how a leading question is biased towards the needs of the person asking it. reads before and commentary after imo.

[rpm]

^^ fair points - all taken on board, thanks. if a few other regs chime in that they don't like the format then i'll edit the first post. and obviously stop doing it in the future

[griffey24]

+1 to redzilla, i can't follow it!

[pocketfours]

tl;dr

[rpm]

original post edited. apologies for the messy format

[pocketfours]

Thanks for editing.

Don't mind the squeeze trap, 4bet sizing is fine. The last spot is pretty close.

Let's say you know that BU has AA and that the fish has JJ (and you know he isn't folding if you jam). In that case jamming would be correct.

If BB is a total spazz, then I don't see why BU couldn't have JJ here sometimes, so I would jam.

[pocketfours]

Math for AA vs QQ vs JJ:
0.18*$150 + 0.81*$62.9 - $3 > $81.45-$17.5

[scott_owen]

rpm, i didnt do the maths like pocketfours has, though i can say that my initial reaction was that you are likely ahead of fish and behind button and that the decision could be mathematically calculated based on that conclusion.

edit: bitch to have to work it out at the table though.. could see myself making either horrible calls or horrible folds in similar situations due to the lack of time available to do stove and punch stack size info through a calculator.

[pocketfours]

By the way if we assume that BU has aces and fish isn't folding we can calculate the equity you will need vs the fish:

0.18*$150 + X*$62.9 - $3 = $81.45-$17.5
X = ($81.45 - $17.5 + $3 - 0.18*$150)/$62.9 = 63.5%

I didn't change your threeway equity, so for a more precise calculation you will need to change that and recalculate once you make an estimation of the range of the fish, but it's not going to make a very significant difference.

[Mr. Diamond]

By the way if we assume that BU has aces and fish isn't folding we can calculate the equity you will need vs the fish:

0.18*$150 + X*$62.9 - $3 = $81.45-$17.5
X = ($81.45 - $17.5 + $3 - 0.18*$150)/$62.9 = 63.5%

I didn't change your threeway equity, so for a more precise calculation you will need to change that and recalculate once you make an estimation of the range of the fish, but it's not going to make a very significant difference.

Thanks a lot for this. Will definitely think about it

[griffey24]

Ask yourself what a normal tag reg would think you have in this spot Flatting in SB and then back-raising. They would probably put you on AQ, or 99-TT or something like that.

So BB could conceivably come back over the top of you with a wide range that beats those hands. Given he's spastic, BB could come back over with an even wider range.

I'm more worried about these repeated button flats by a player who doesn't 4bet. That being said, once I'm this invested, I'm going with it.

[Mr. Diamond]

By the way if we assume that BU has aces and fish isn't folding we can calculate the equity you will need vs the fish:

0.18*$150 + X*$62.9 - $3 = $81.45-$17.5
X = ($81.45 - $17.5 + $3 - 0.18*$150)/$62.9 = 63.5%

I didn't change your threeway equity, so for a more precise calculation you will need to change that and recalculate once you make an estimation of the range of the fish, but it's not going to make a very significant difference.

Just saw, that you used one bad number. There should be 52 and not 62.9, because fish doesn't cover us. So we need more than 76.8% equity vs fish stacking off range

[pocketfours]

Yeah that's true, nice that someone actually reads my posts I misread that UTG was the fish when I did the math.

That makes this a pretty easy fold then, but we can still note that we could stack off vs very likely aces if the fish had covered us.