TAG or NIT

[scott_owen]

I watched a video last night that was specifically tailored to 2NL full ring. The guys play was solid and well thought out. It was however a very basic strategy, with not a lot of player specific thought, mostly just "my own cards and how to play them".

There was a hand where the 'coach' folds AK preflop in MP to a single 3x raise by UTG+1.

His points are, and they seem valid..

• Opponents range is equal or ahead of us, so we must fold to c-bets on missed flops.
• Opponents range is equal or ahead of us, so we are only ever looking to play a small pot even on flops we hit.
• Because we are in MP we may see more callers behind leaving us without iniative and out of position in a multiway pot, further weakening the relative hand strength of our TPTK.
• Better to get out preflop without putting any chips in, than face an awkward situation, as there are plenty of other opportunities to profit in this game.

I'm inclined to agree with him.. so am I being being very TAG, in that this is super tight and i'm folding because it will be a bad situation to get aggressive in, or am I being very nit-faced in agreeing that folding AK preflop is ok here.

note that his play was otherwise not nitty at all. tight OOP, opened up in the CO and BU. aggressive with good hands, c-bet's, set-mined when the odds were good etc. etc.

[!Luck]

That's nitty. But if you struggle with 2nl folding more will help a lot.


Folding AK is super nitty considering that his range can include tt+AK .

[bikes]

folding is absurdly wtf nitty would def recommend picking a different instructor

[scott_owen]

right, so thats what i wouldve said before watching this guy.

He did say that he was playing an exclusively 2NL full ring strategy that would not work at any higher level and was for total beginners.

I watched this because it was recommended by daviddem in the thread titled 'please help'

I don't find 2NL hard to beat, i do find it erratic and hard to read though which is why i'm inclined to agree with this. any other game I'd probably advocate for reraising AK

being nitty seems like it can profit at 2NL.

edit: I'm not looking for someone to tell me to either follow this guy or not.. more just does anyone think this is profitable. cos my gut reaction was yes, but its not the most profitable play.

perhaps the question is "for someone who's never played before, is suggesting this play ok, because it means they will get in the habit of looking to bet, not call and be in position as often as possible?"

[JR9477]

Finding every opportunity to profit >>> Finding another opportunity to profit

Folding is gonna beat 2nl, but eventually you're going to hit a cealing. An instructor (even video) should be teaching you to think beyond "What do I have". People might be tight, but at 2nl they are still likely to be horrendous postflop. Better to learn now, cheaply, how to profit in situations like these rather than struggling with it at a higher stake.

Edit: Took me too long to post this, but I tended to let situations like this pass too often. Now I have a lot of passive tendancies that I'm still trying to work out.

[scott_owen]

so at 2NL is the play to call and bet for value with TPTK, fold to c-bet on missed flops or check down if no c-bet. or do we raise to isolate? i think its likely that we'd see a lot of callers here if we don't raise. and i'm inclined to agree that we are equal or behind the raisers range still. a lot of the players here are running at like 65/3.. their raising range is like AQs+ JJ+

[EasyPoker]

folding is absurdly wtf nitty would def recommend picking a different instructor

lol

[d0zer]

tag and nit are not boolean values. one man's tagg is another man's nit. there's like super duper 8/6 nit regs that can still beat some microstakes (what a life), but the higher you go, the less supernits are winning so just learn to play.

both 3betting and calling are almost always better in that spot than folding the AK.

it is premium hand, yes?

yes

[supa]

Personally I believe that the abso best way to beat 2nl is to be a massive nit. This implies that if you're trying to beat 2nl you're probably early in your education and it's good to create a foundation that you can build on as you move up in stakes. You can't really learn to play poker at 2nl, but you can learn the basics while you're there.

As far as folding in this spot I'd say it's too nitty.

[!Luck]

Yes you can learn poker 2nl. 2nl is the perfect time to start putting people on ranges, a skill that you will continue to refine as you advance.

[daviddem]

Yes that AK fold in the vid is questionable of course, but I think he made it mostly to make the points that you listed above. His basic strategy is to play hands as the PFR, in position wherever possible.

This hand was discussed on their forum and he basically said that of course it's OK to continue with AK against a UTG open, but it is read dependent (if the opener is a 3/3, you might as well dump your AK, if he is a 80/70 you obviously 3b it, etc). He did not have reads on this first vid because he was not using a HUD.

Do not rule off the entire vid and instructor on this one hand. His strategy does work. Yes it is nitty, straightforward, ABC and everything you want, but his goal is to show you that you can beat 2NL, and he makes a fine job of that while building a nice nit platform and play discipline to build onto.

[scott_owen]

i certainly didnt write him off, i watched the first 2 videos, the short powerpoint thing and the session at 2NL.. he specifically says that his strategy is aimed at beginners and its deliberately dumbed down so be as simple as possible to turn a complete baffoon into a 2NL winner.

also says something along the lines of "to all the 2+2ers, dont call me a retard, i know this isnt 100% optimal for higher stakes" ...I gather his lessons get more complicated in the next set of videos

[JR9477]

Probably a good basic video, maybe good for those struggling to turn a profit, which would give a nice confidence boost for some people. Maybe PrvtBong should watch?

@OP, just keep being open to the possibility that there may be other actions to take. Anyways, you seem like a decent guy, keep learning and good luck.

[rpm]

while this video MAY be able to have you beating 2nl based on a rote-learnt system, the best plan of attack imo is to start learning about things which make you a good poker player. things which allow you to adapt to game conditions and increase your EV in those games. ranges. equities. fold equities etc.

[rpm]

concepts for which there is a wealth of free resources available. on this site alone.

[Keith]

while this video MAY be able to have you beating 2nl based on a rote-learnt system, the best plan of attack imo is to start learning about things which make you a good poker player. things which allow you to adapt to game conditions and increase your EV in those games. ranges. equities. fold equities etc.

The video's are designed to stop people losing money at 2nl.For everyone here thats beaten 2nl and moved on up it may seem basic. For people struggling at 2nl who keep playing and losing , the strategy advocated hammers out all the leaks that have got them losing money in the first place.

Whats the point in knowing other peoples ranges if they can't play a decent range themselves.They play too many hands out of position against hands that dominate them. They call too much, they don't cbet enough when they miss the flop , they don't fold to late street aggression without the nuts etc . All these leaks get hammered out and get the "loser" playing a strong range in position and with initiative.From there ,they can then start and understand what other peoples ranges are , what betting lines tend to mean,how they can start to play to make more profit from a hand.The fact that they are now able to make more gves them the encouragemnet to actually do some work and try and make more money.

and lOL at fold equities at 2nl, most of their opponents don't realise they have a fold button

[Stacks]

• Opponents range is equal or ahead of us, so we must fold to c-bets on missed flops.
• Opponents range is equal or ahead of us, so we are only ever looking to play a small pot even on flops we hit.
• Because we are in MP we may see more callers behind leaving us without iniative and out of position in a multiway pot, further weakening the relative hand strength of our TPTK.
• Better to get out preflop without putting any chips in, than face an awkward situation, as there are plenty of other opportunities to profit in this game.

(1) Opponents range is equal or ahead of us is likely untrue. A relatively
'standard' range of {66+,AQ+} leaves us with 48% equity. It's absolutely reasonable to assume villains are opening wider than that. Sometimes opening KQs, AJ, suited connectors, all pairs, etc. But yes, it is dependent on the villain (obviously). But without reads, I would assume AK is ahead of their range.

Also, if it's true that our hand is equal or behind his range, that isn't all that has to be considered. Given we will be acting in position, this increases the value of our hand, while reducing the value of his. We can stand a bit of reduced equity if we are IP. The same goes for if we feel we are more skilled than villain and less likely to make postflop mistakes.

(2) Also not true. On a lot of flops we do hit, he will have a good portion of second best hands. AK on a Kxx flop, he could have numerous worse pocket pairs that pay off 1-2 (or more if he's bad) streets, as well as any KQ hands he has. Same for Axx flops where he has AQ in his range.

(3) What about the times our call invites fish into the pot that increases the value of our top pair hands, since we can valuebet them relentlessly? What about the times our call invites light squeezes? Or the times our calls invite calls from players with dominated holdings (KJ/KQ/AJ/AT/AQ/KT/etc)?

(4) You are going to inevitably face awkward situations in poker. If they are profitable, you shouldn't be looking to avoid them, but understand them. If they are profitable, you should be willing to take the awkward spot, both because it makes you money and because you will become better for it.

He did say that he was playing an exclusively 2NL full ring strategy that would not work at any higher level and was for total beginners.

What makes 2nl different from other levels? It's that the player pool is on average worse, and more prone to making mistakes. If anything against an unknown this should lead to a competent hero playing a wider range of hands given his skill advantage is much more prominent.

any other game I'd probably advocate for reraising AK

In other games, it is entirely possible that the villain is less likely to make a mistake. Either less likely to play badly against hero's 3betting range, or less likely to play badly postflop should hero call. The worse, and more erratic/bad, the villains are the more inclined you should be to enter pots with them (as often as possible). As they are going to lose their money at some point, and you want as many opportunities for it to be you as possible.

being nitty seems like it can profit at 2NL.

Certainly it will be profitable. Because the villains will be too bad to realize our ranges are as tight as they are, and still make loads of mistakes. But it isn't just about profitability, it's about being as profitable as possible. We shouldn't look to fold AK here if it's profitable to play, simply because our AA/KK will be profitable in this spot.

[daviddem]

But it isn't just about profitability, it's about being as profitable as possible.

Not dwelling on the AK hand anymore, but generally speaking I think it is OK at these stakes to take all the fat value that is there for the picking, and pass on marginal or thin EV spots to lower overall variance.

Always trying to make the most profitable play, however thin value may be, will increase variance tremendously, and this may well be more detrimental to your overall situation and goals than the small extra EV.

Matter of fact, some EV spots are so thin that combined with the inevitable imperfection of reads and unpredictability of opponents at the micros, you might as well flip a coin.

With the low amount of hands I play, I consciously choose not to take spots which may slightly increase my win rate in the very long term while dramatically increasing my variance, for the simple reason that in the not-extremely-long term these plays may well translate into pretty steep losses or extended break even periods. Play around with this to see how badly variance is the enemy of the low volume player:

ev++ Poker Tools :: Poker Variance Simulator

[rpm]

The video's are designed to stop people losing money at 2nl.For everyone here thats beaten 2nl and moved on up it may seem basic. For people struggling at 2nl who keep playing and losing , the strategy advocated hammers out all the leaks that have got them losing money in the first place.

Whats the point in knowing other peoples ranges if they can't play a decent range themselves.They play too many hands out of position against hands that dominate them. They call too much, they don't cbet enough when they miss the flop , they don't fold to late street aggression without the nuts etc . All these leaks get hammered out and get the "loser" playing a strong range in position and with initiative.From there ,they can then start and understand what other peoples ranges are , what betting lines tend to mean,how they can start to play to make more profit from a hand.The fact that they are now able to make more gves them the encouragemnet to actually do some work and try and make more money.

and lOL at fold equities at 2nl, most of their opponents don't realise they have a fold button

i disagree with almost all of this. but that's just my personal preference for attempting to learn about poker. i'm not saying it's necessarily the right or wrong approach for OP, just saying that he can learn how to do ALL of the above things you mentioned:
- understand position
- learn to avoid dominated situations
- learn to bet for value
- learn to steal blinds against appropriate opponents (and develop more positional awareness in the process)

via learning about ranges/equity/fold equity (yes it does exist even at 2nl) rather than through rote learning some system without learning why that system works.

obv this is my just my opinion and it's a matter of preference. i just think you can learn how to play +EV style of poker, with a tiny bit more work, and have the added benefit of knowing why you're doing things, and having less trouble when the time comes to move to higher stakes.

[Stacks]

Not dwelling on the AK hand anymore, but generally speaking I think it is OK at these stakes to take all the fat value that is there for the taking, and pass on marginal or thin EV spots to lower overall variance.

I'm not disputing whether it's 'OK' or not, because it clearly is, I'm simply stating it's not best. And that it doesn't just come down to profitability. While passing on marginal or thin spots that are profitable for the sake of reducing variance isn't really a bad thing, the goal of poker is to make as much as possible. And at microstakes, especially 2nl, it's also to improve as a player and begin fixing the numerous leaks you have in your game. While tightening up will minimize losses should you make mistakes (while also reducing profits since you are missing out on profitable spots), it would be at the expense of learning and growing, which as stated I think it hugely important at 2nl.

Also, given the overall terrible nature of the player pool a lot of spots that arise that are marginal/thin (especially with regards to value) might be a bit more +EV than you expect due to just how often they make very large mistakes (and surprise us with the hands they call with).

Also, and I could be wrong, given the very high attainable winrates at microstakes, the negative variance assumed by 'marginal' spots can't be that much a hinderance on overall variance. Given we would be profiting so much in other areas, we should be able to take just a hint of marginality even if it does produce a bit more swings, well because we will be so far in the black anyways.

[daviddem]

^^^ I agree with all of the above, and particularly the learning bit. And I also think that what Keith proposes in his vid is not intended to be a "system to win at 2NL" but rather a decent starting point or initial foundation to build onto. Better starting tight, nitty and disciplined and then open up the game with more advanced plays than starting from bad habits of calling too much, playing too much OOP, tilting stacks in -EV spots, etc.

Note: I don't have a hidden agenda and am not at all affiliated with his site

[Keith]

i disagree with almost all of this. but that's just my personal preference for attempting to learn about poker. i'm not saying it's necessarily the right or wrong approach for OP, just saying that he can learn how to do ALL of the above things you mentioned:
- understand position
- learn to avoid dominated situations
- learn to bet for value
- learn to steal blinds against appropriate opponents (and develop more positional awareness in the process)

via learning about ranges/equity/fold equity (yes it does exist even at 2nl) rather than through rote learning some system without learning why that system works.

Have you watched the videos refered to and considered who they are targetted at?. If not how can you say its a rote learned system and judge them?. The whole point of them is to stop losers losing money at 2nl and give the beginner a baseline that will be profitable. IT IS NOT THE MOST PROFITABLE WAY TO PLAY AND STATES THAT IT ISN'T. its a starting point. The videos explain why they are doing things .Everything else can then be built onto it.

obv this is my just my opinion and it's a matter of preference. i just think you can learn how to play +EV style of poker, with a tiny bit more work, and have the added benefit of knowing why you're doing things, and having less trouble when the time comes to move to higher stakes.

Thats the whole point of the videos though, they are just a first step , to stop people losing money and avoid putting themselves into spots where they end up spewing money. Once they get used to playing tight aggressive postionally aware poker , they can then do that extra bit of work and start adding hands and putting themselves into marginal spots, going for more value knowing that they have a profitable base to support the changes in their game that will allow them to move up.

@DavidDem - they aren't my videos or site lol

[NightGizmo]

Which situation would you prefer? (1) You're a small winner at 2NL and you recognize that you need to improve a lot of your game, or (2) You're losing at 2NL and you recognize that you need to improve a lot.

You're obviously going to want the first situation, because that allows you to play indefinitely while learning. In the second situation, you might eventually run out of money in your account, plus it's just demoralizing watching your BR slowly shrink despite all of your efforts.

There's nothing wrong with using the vids to achieve a positive winrate, as long as you recognize that it's strictly a first step and that there is a long road of learning ahead.

[Openside]

Which situation would you prefer? (1) You're a small winner at 2NL and you recognize that you need to improve a lot of your game, or (2) You're losing at 2NL and you recognize that you need to improve a lot.

You're obviously going to want the first situation, because that allows you to play indefinitely while learning. In the second situation, you might eventually run out of money in your account, plus it's just demoralizing watching your BR slowly shrink despite all of your efforts.

There's nothing wrong with using the vids to achieve a positive winrate, as long as you recognize that it's strictly a first step and that there is a long road of learning ahead.

+1 /thread

[aka_red]

i don't think i know anybody who opens that tight utg+1

[scott_owen]

This thread got a bit popular while I was sleeping it seems

I think the raising range could be tighter than you guys think. A lot of these playes give new meaning to 'liose passive' ..the calling range is huge, any Tx+, then they call post flop with any pair, gutshots or flush it open ended draws. Hands they hit the often don't bet. In the video we see a guy flop trip J's and not bet the flop or turn, he rivers quads and still doesn't bet. So if stats are 54/3 do we really think the raising range is often behind AK?

I still don't mind playing though because were equal with him and the players behind are still calling the raise with junk. And we're saying we get good value from that
Alot of 2NL guys look to open shove AA KK too as they are short stacked and suck post flop. We may also get called by QQ on a K47 board. And destroy the lot of them on TJQ.

Alot of beginning players scream about bit being able to win with premium hands so. I can see why he might recommend giving up on a marginal situation like this until you've got a better understanding of the flow of the game. Variance screws with a new players head pretty quickly too. It sucks to try so hard to do the right thing and keep busting chips in marginal situations. It makes you feel like your completely stupid because your likely still very results orientated.

Also, I wrote this on my phone, I know there are typos.

[WeaselT]

if you cant play AK in that spot then dont! If you can then do...........
is that the point??

[rpm]

@Keith,

you're right. i haven't watched the video so i am quite possibly ill-informed about it's approach. i made my comments based on what other people said about his style of teaching. i certainly see the merits of what you're saying. building confidence, gaining the ability to get some poker experience and put in some volume without losing and becoming discouraged, etc. i would personally prefer someone to have guided me towards understanding of the concepts which make people a winning player when i started out, rather than telling me some kind of system (i'm not saying this is necessarily what this video does, it just seems that way based on how people describe it), which is what actually happened. i guess this post kind of sums up where i'm coming from. my comments were in no way personal attacks upon you or your viewpoints.

http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerforum/beginners-circle/backwards-learning-theory-poker-153550.html