Combo FD & OESD on Btn w/ loose villains betting & raising (2NL micro)

[rowhousepd]

I raise small suited connectors from the button and get into a good situation on flop w/ 3 caller and a combo draw. It's a well hidden inside SD and a low FD. BB is a maniac (62/15/3.8), UTG is a weak fish (52/5/1.1), and MP2 is a very loose fish (67/7/1.0) who's basically short stacked.

The flop is Bet, Raised, Called.... Do I shove?or just call?

Grabbed by Holdem Manager
NL Holdem $0.02(BB) Replayer
SB ($1.98)
BB ($9.66)
UTG ($3.02)
UTG+1 ($1.51)
UTG+2 ($2)
MP1 ($2)
MP2 ($0.82)
CO ($2)
Hero ($2.67)

Dealt to Hero 5 6

UTG calls $0.02, fold, fold, fold, MP2 calls $0.02, fold, Hero raises to $0.10, fold, BB calls $0.08, UTG calls $0.08, MP2 calls $0.08

FLOP ($0.41) 8 4 K

BB bets $0.06, UTG raises to $0.12, MP2 calls $0.12, Hero???

[Razvan729]

you dont have any FE vs a maniac and a fish, i really dont think these guys wild fold TP or a FD,your FD is low + a gutshot, if you like flips vs TP, shove, but like this the pot odds are great so my choice would be to call and see turn.

[spoonitnow]

I think calling probably has a higher EV than shoving here.

[daviddem]

I agree with calling the flop for the reasons mentioned above, although there is a risk that the BB maniac will reraise.

I don't like pre, what are you hoping for raising low SC's on the button vs stations and with a maniac in the blinds? No fold equity pre, no fold equity post. Long run this is -EV imo. If you really want to play them limp behind and get excited when you flop 12+ outs once in a blue moon.

This is 2NL FFS, no need to get cute with SC's, take all the fat value that is there for the taking off the shelf and get through 2NL with a straight line graph and low variance. This is the fastest way you will get to stakes where you will have to start playing these hands for thinner value and higher variance to remain profitable.

[kickass]

^agreed^ 2nl is a walk in the park when you just give up on all the "I'm good a poker shit" play big hands for big pots and otherwise stay the fuck out. I think after i realised this it took like a week to make it to 5nl after fucking about down the bottom for at least a month maybe 2.

[daven]

call

[kfaess]

Why would you not post your thoughts during the hand and your own analysis? Seems like you're asking someone to give you the answer rather than trying to figure it out on your own.

Looks like an easy call to me

[connorislost]

On the flop you are behind you have a gutshot straight draw not an open ended with a total of 12 outs. Shoving most likely won't fold out all 3 opponents so that is why you have low fold equity. You will then be at a coin flip or drawing to a lower end flush wich might be plus ev but not as much as calling. If BB just flats after your call then you would be calling around 15% of pot to hit your card 25% of the time and a good chance to stack off given opponents. so when u call and hit you will win the same amount if you shoved. If you miss you can easily fold and save you're stack.

[rowhousepd]

Looking back at this, I'm realizing that I'm ignoring the advice I've heard many times -- that bets (or shoves) will only fold out worse hands, but only better hands will call. For some reason I'm not taking this concept to the tables. Arrg.

I don't like pre, what are you hoping for raising low SC's on the button vs stations and with a maniac in the blinds?

I'm usually raise limpers w/ SC's on the button, but usually not w/ stations ... which I did here. Ooops.

This is 2NL FFS, no need to get cute with SC's, take all the fat value that is there for the taking off the shelf and get through 2NL with a straight line graph and low variance.

Yeah, I need to remember this. I recently went down to 2NL because I found a bunch of leaks and wanted to get a little crazy -- wanted to try some stuff out w/ little consequence and didn't want to risk $. But I think I'm suffereing from fancy play syndrome a little here.

Why would you not post your thoughts during the hand and your own analysis? Seems like you're asking someone to give you the answer rather than trying to figure it out on your own.

Huh?

If BB just flats after your call then you would be calling around 15% of pot to hit your card 25% of the time and a good chance to stack off given opponents. so when u call and hit you will win the same amount if you shoved. If you miss you can easily fold and save you're stack.

Yikes, can you explain this a little? I call 0.12, BB flats 0.12 making the pot 0.89 which ~15% of my 0.12 call. Ok.... but how does hitting make the same amount if shoved?

[Razvan729]

Ok.... but how does hitting make the same amount if shoved?

because its 2nl with a maniac and a fish ( your reads ) and if they cant fold TP when you shove flop, they wount also fold TP when you hit the flush or the straight, so by calling flop you make the same money w/o risking so much money when you shove flop. you are IP in this hand, so when turn hits you, you can play your hand perfect vs them.

[kfaess]

Huh?

What do you mean huh? I don't really see how you could not have understood what I was saying. Look, I'm not trying to be a dick here but this is what I think:

Look at the op you wrote. You tell us what happened PF (which we can read ourselves from the HH), you tell us how our hand connected with the board (again, we can see this ourselves), and then you give us reads. In the closing sentence you tell us the flop action and ask what to do.

How about telling is WHY you raised the SC otb.
How about telling us what you want to do facing this flop action and WHY
How about posting some ranges
How about giving us your plan for the rest of the hand
etc etc etc.................................

IMO, posting a hand in this manner is not really doing that much to help you improve.

[spoonitnow]

I agree with calling the flop for the reasons mentioned above, although there is a risk that the BB maniac will reraise.

Not really a big deal since we'll have a +EV call, and might even get it in multi-way.

I don't like pre, what are you hoping for raising low SC's on the button vs stations and with a maniac in the blinds? No fold equity pre, no fold equity post. Long run this is -EV imo. If you really want to play them limp behind and get excited when you flop 12+ outs once in a blue moon.

I don't mind either way. If we had some sort of idea of how they'll play to c-bets it would be a clearer choice.

[bikes]

raise floppppppppp big. like really big like ship it in prolly

[Carroters]

I'd much rather just call.

[rowhousepd]

because its 2nl with a maniac and a fish ( your reads ) and if they cant fold TP when you shove flop, they wount also fold TP when you hit the flush or the straight, so by calling flop you make the same money w/o risking so much money when you shove flop. you are IP in this hand, so when turn hits you, you can play your hand perfect vs them.

Got'cha. Makes sense, given these guys are looooooose. Thanks.

What do you mean huh? I don't really see how you could not have understood what I was saying. Look, I'm not trying to be a dick here but this is what I think:

Look at the op you wrote. You tell us what happened PF (which we can read ourselves from the HH), you tell us how our hand connected with the board (again, we can see this ourselves), and then you give us reads. In the closing sentence you tell us the flop action and ask what to do.

How about telling is WHY you raised the SC otb.
How about telling us what you want to do facing this flop action and WHY
How about posting some ranges
How about giving us your plan for the rest of the hand
etc etc etc.................................

IMO, posting a hand in this manner is not really doing that much to help you improve.

Ok ok, dude, I hear ya. I'll keep it in mind. Cheers.