What to do with Ace on flop but no Ace in your hand?

[madurskim]

I think I found a major leak in my game:

(I am currently playing full ring, 2NL)

Let's say I do a standard 3xbb open in MP with something like JJ/QQ or KQs.
Button calls, blinds fold.
Villain is just an average 2NL player, nothing special, but not necessarily a fish. Probably any Ax is in his range.
Flop comes: A94, rainbow.
I make a standard C-bet, 2/3 pot, villain calls.

I immediately think "god damn, he must have an ace," and proceed to check/fold the turn and river (unless it gives me a hand that can beat aces of course)

Same thing if I'm in the button w/ same range and villain check/calls my c-bet or donk bets into me. I just can't seem to get away from this thought pattern



Thoughts?

[Stacks]

Villain is just an average 2NL player, nothing special, but not necessarily a fish. Probably any Ax is in his range.

If all Ax hands are in his range, then he is probably a fish.

Flop comes: A94, rainbow.
I make a standard C-bet, 2/3 pot, villain calls.

I immediately think "god damn, he must have an ace," and proceed to check/fold the turn and river (unless it gives me a hand that can beat aces of course)

Why are you cbetting with JJ/QQ if you feel he only calls with Ax or better?

KQ would be fine since he would then be folding a lot of better hands to your cbet such as 44-88, etc.

[rong]

exactly what stax says.

Think about why you are betting. Are you betting for value, ie worse hands are calling, or as a bluff, ie better hands are folding.

If your bet doesn't do one of the above, then c/c or c/f is probably a better option. You don't have to cbet every flop.

[mrhappy333]

I try to think about my Position, what range of hands I would have in this position, opponents position with a range of hands at their position. Then I look at the flop texture. Did the flop hit my range? opponents range?
Then I decide wether to Cbet

[!Luck]

Mad,

How about you post a hand where you had trouble making the correct play. It is better to learn how to evaluate a hand then it is to get a "std" process memorized.

!luck

[kmind]

I agree with every response in this thread.

I think you'll get a lot out of this thread TBH. You'll most likely fix a big leak and for sure help your thinking process.

[madurskim]

Okay here's one:

MP2 is 43/5 of 50 hands, button is new to table.
I'm figuring MP2 could really have ATC.



Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (9 handed) - Full Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

BB ($1.38)
UTG ($2.62)
UTG+1 ($1.96)
MP1 ($2.71)
MP2 ($5.12)
MP3 ($2.20)
Hero (CO) ($2)
Button ($2.08)
SB ($2)

Preflop: Hero is CO with Q , K
3 folds, MP2 calls $0.02, 1 fold, Hero bets $0.06, Button calls $0.06, 2 folds, MP2 calls $0.04

Flop: ($0.21) 7 , K , A (3 players)
MP2 checks, Hero bets $0.12, Button calls $0.12, MP2 calls $0.12

Turn: ($0.57) 5 (3 players)
MP2 checks,

Hero ????

[Carroters]

Check the flop and c/f the turn as played. Absolutely nothing wrong with c/f this turn now that you're crushed by both their calling ranges and their betting ranges.

[madurskim]

Okay good to know.

What about this:

I only had 5 hands on villain at the time and he was like 60/12

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (9 handed) - Full Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

UTG ($1.27)
UTG+1 ($2.02)
MP1 ($2.49)
MP2 ($2.80)
MP3 ($1.84)
CO ($1.49)
Hero (Button) ($2)
SB ($2.01)
BB ($2.10)

Preflop: Hero is Button with K , K
UTG calls $0.02, 2 folds, MP2 calls $0.02, MP3 calls $0.02, 1 fold, Hero bets $0.08, 4 folds, MP3 calls $0.06

Flop: ($0.23) 5 , A , A (2 players)
MP3 checks, Hero checks

Turn: ($0.23) J (2 players)
MP3 checks, Hero bets $0.08, MP3 raises to $0.26

Hero???

[madurskim]

And this is a kind of similar situation too:

Villain had pretty good stats, I think it was something like 16/10 over 165 hands.




Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (9 handed) - Full Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

BB ($3.64)
UTG ($1.30)
UTG+1 ($1.97)
MP1 ($1.99)
MP2 ($1.95)
MP3 ($1.81)
CO ($2.33)
Button ($2)
Hero (SB) ($2)

Preflop: Hero is SB with K , A
4 folds, MP3 calls $0.02, 2 folds, Hero bets $0.06, 1 fold, MP3 calls $0.04

Flop: ($0.14) 5 , 10 , Q (2 players)
Hero bets $0.08, MP3 calls $0.08

Turn: ($0.30) 8 (2 players)
Hero checks, MP3 bets $0.30


Hero???

[Carroters]

Fold both. Not sure why you find these problematic, you've no reason to feel villain's range is weak in either of these last two so just fold. I like the give up in hand 2. without more info that this guys totally mental in hand 1, you're looking at Ax the vast majority of the time.

Unfortunately there is no magic way to win hands where our opponent's range kills us

Iso larger in both of these preflop.

[rong]

Iso larger in both of these preflop.

Right here is your ticket to success. You could prob raise 5 or 6 bb and still get called by a 60/12. Now of course he will fold a lot more than his normal 60 limp range, but that's fine. The shit he is limping with at 3bb isn't paying you off unless you both hit big anyway. If you bet more, he'll still be calling with a tonne of shit you are way ahead of, but he'll be calling with the much better part of his lipming range, so he doesn't have to hit a monster to feel like he wants to put more chips in.

[Carroters]

Also you avoid multiway pots and unnecessary reverse implied odds and get whales to yourself more. The other reason is these guys call too wide pre and play fit or fold; your c-bets take down bigger pots.

[madurskim]

Okay thanks guys.

I guess the main thing that's on my mind in these situations is if I'm the preflop raiser and check the flop/turn then he could very well be betting simply cause he knows/thinks I missed.

[rong]

What you're saying is true, but this isn't always a bad thing as it gives villain the opportunity to bluff. eg: if you call a bet on an A hi flop with KK, it is sometimes ok and often far better than betting, because worse hands than yours can bet as a bluff, but only better can call if you bet.

[cleanup.that]

What you're saying is true, but this isn't always a bad thing as it gives villain the opportunity to bluff. eg: if you call a bet on an A hi flop with KK, it is sometimes ok and often far better than betting, because worse hands than yours can bet as a bluff, but only better can call if you bet.

Everyone seems to think that its always a matter of "folding out worse and only better will call." It is not that simple. OP is worried that he is folding the best hand too often in playing this way and he is probably right. A lot of times (mostly when you are OOP) there will be merit in just betting to take down the pot especially against players who play straightforwardly. (example: players who will check back 66 on an A high flop anyway. You are just giving him free peels by not betting and hes not putting money in unless he gets there)

If WE are playing straight forward ABC poker what we do not want is for people to always be able to identify when we have a weak range and start firing off. If you feel that certain players are prone to doing this, then you need to mix up your play. A simple thing you can do is start check calling or check raising with hands you would normally bet for value.

Basically what it comes down to is getting more comfortable with your post flop skills.

OP- you have to understand that there will not be a clear cut "best play" in a lot of situations that you encounter during play. Everyone gets into these situations and sometimes they can be very frustrating to navigate through. Instead of asking "what to do" you need to be asking about what to CONSIDER, so that YOU can figure out what works for YOU and YOUR game.