Playing PPs in EP vs UTG Raise

[StarGrinder]

What is your standard play with pocket pairs vs an UTG 4x raise when you're UTG+1 and UTG+2 in FR? Assume everyone behind has at least 60-100bb stacks and the table is generally average in terms of aggressiveness however we don't have enough stats on villains to know if they're squeeze happy. UTG is a standard wannabe taggish reg, although the players left to act have more to do with my decision.

What's your play and why with 22-66? 77-99? TT-JJ? QQ? KK/AA?

I'd just like to see how others think about poker in this spot. I don't want an answer of "it depends". If that is your response, fine but back it up with more information towards the situation.

[bhaley66]

Right or wrong I am:

(22-99)=FOLDING
(TT-JJ)=CALLING
(QQ-AA)=RAISING

in any position. However it does depend on many things what & where I move holdings around in these ranges.

I would definitely like to hear more on this too though...

[celtic123]

I've not played FR for a few months but I'de like to get involved in this discussion

Assuming ~ UTG RANGE 99+



Raise w/ QQ+ UTG+1,2 and MP

F/C w/ 66-JJ


I'm thinking flatcalling is transparent though.

[Tasha]

UTG opening with 4x usually means something pretty big. Even 99+ seems a little wide.

[StarGrinder]

UTG opening with 4x usually means something pretty big. Even 99+ seems a little wide.

Wat? That's a standard raise size for any holding UTG, whether it's AA or 87s. Hell, sometimes I'll raise to 5x, 6x, 7x, 8x, etc if there a retards in the blinds that will call the bet with worse. And don't add to the question, answer it.

I'm thinking flatcalling is transparent though.

Possible if people are paying attention. And if so, you're basically giving someone in LP the green light to squeeze.

[pdk1010]

I give the utg open the following range 99+,AJs+,KQs, AQo+

22-66 im flatting looking for other limpers behind and setmining if i get em-if no other limpers im betting any flops that i think miss utg's raising range(if he checks of course), if i miss the flop im folding to MOST bets

77-99-Im inclined to include these with the 22-66 group although i feel like 3 betting light here is an option to be considered


tt-qq- 3 betting these with the intention of flatting any 4bets and folding to flop bets where the flop hits his range....and prolly 3 betting any cbets on these as well with the intention of check folding the turn if he continues

kk/aa-3bet, 5bet shove pre(if i get 4 bet)-obv evaluate things after the flop on how to continue if flatted

[bhaley66]

That's a standard raise size for any holding UTG, whether it's AA or 87s. Hell, sometimes I'll raise to 5x, 6x, 7x, 8x, etc if there a retards in the blinds that will call the bet with worse.

Wat? You raise 87s UTG?

[Raoni_Poker]

I dont play FR much, but if effective stacks are around 100 BBs I would flat call here with small PPs (JJ-22). With very aggressive players to act, I could fold 88-22 and call JJ-99.

QQ-AA I would isolate the player with a 3x raise, if he 4 bets all In I would call it assuming that he is a standard micro-limit donkey (they love to do this with AQ+).

[bhaley66]

I give the utg open the following range 99+,AJs+,KQs, AQo+



77-99-Im inclined to include these with the 22-66 group although i feel like 3 betting light here is an option to be considered

If that is the opening range you give UTG villain why would you 3bet 77-99? First off, your behind his opening range, 2nd and most important, what is his continuing to 3bet range? Far ahead of 77-99...

[Monsieur_chat]

Flat 22 - JJ, 3bet QQ+.

And with the number of fish that flat suited aces, suited connectors etc in the same position, I wouldn't say that flatting is transparent at all.

[JKDS]

It depends

No really cmon now.

UTG is a super nit

UTG is a super lag

UTG is tagish

UTG is a passive feesh

MP1 is a maniac who 3bets every hand

BB calls 3bets with every hand pre

UTG folds to 3bets 75% of the time

UTG plays fit fold post

UTG cbets 2% of the time

UTG cbets 100% of the tiem and double barrels 100% of the time

I could go on.

[Donachello]

I T D E P E N D S

There's a shitton of factors that go in to deciding what to do in this spot. The only truly legitimate answer is "it depends"

However, in general I am going to be folding 22-66. The reason being that with 7 people left to act if I call there is a large chance that a squeeze could take place. Granted it is smaller at FR since people tend to respect UTG raises more. However, if we call with 22-66 and the flop comes down 2 8 K and the UTG bets, you call and a person behind you shoves. What do you do? Surely the guy behind you if at all intelligent is not doing this with much except a hand like 88. Your put in a shitty spot where you have a very good hand but are quite likely to lose.

Or let's say you flat with 33 and the flop comes down 467r. The UTG checks, you check and the CO checks. The BTN bets min and you feel obligated to call. The next card is a 3. What the hell do you do? You're still behind all sorts of straights and higher sets out of position for two more streets of action. Not a great prospect if you ask me.

I'm more inclined to flat hands like 77-JJ here because 1) they can sort of stand up to some extent should a squeeze occur. Additionally, hands like 99-JJ not only have showdown value should the UTG whiff the flop with a hand like AK. Also, should you flop a set with one of these hands there is a higher chance that the UTG raiser's range has also gotten a piece of the flop and will be less likely to fold.

I'm always 3betting KK+ (unless the guy is like 1/0 over 500 hands) since you don't want a lot of people flatting behind you with trash that could easily hit a disguised monster in position against you when you have a hand that is hard to lay down. Also, you fare well against both the UTG's 4betting and flatting ranges. QQ is a bit more interesting since a lot of people at FR don't stack off with less than AK and KK+. This makes stacking off a bad proposition and you still would prefer to have a bunch of trash hands IP vs you. At this point I think the dynamic between you and the UTG raiser becomes much more important. However, you could just go ahead and 3bet and fold to a 4b or shove.

Anyway, I rambled a bit but whatever.

[StarGrinder]

It depends

No really cmon now.

UTG is a super nit

UTG is a super lag

UTG is tagish

UTG is a passive feesh

MP1 is a maniac who 3bets every hand

BB calls 3bets with every hand pre

UTG folds to 3bets 75% of the time

UTG plays fit fold post

UTG cbets 2% of the time

UTG cbets 100% of the tiem and double barrels 100% of the time

I could go on.

None of these matter since we have 10 hands on him.

Wat? You raise 87s UTG?

Yes, no, well, maybe. It depends, ha!

Anyway, I rambled a bit but whatever.

No, this is the type of response/discussion I was expecting.

[JKDS]

No it totally matters. Even after 10 hands you should know a little big about everyone at the table. Half of the things i listed you should already be aware of.

[StarGrinder]

Ok, 2 hands on him and he's 0/0 over that large sample, and bought in full, and he's got a picture of a beagle as his avatar.

[pdk1010]

If that is the opening range you give UTG villain why would you 3bet 77-99? First off, your behind his opening range, 2nd and most important, what is his continuing to 3bet range? Far ahead of 77-99...

i dont think his continuing range here changes much from his utg opening range, if anything maybe throw out aq, kq but this will be the minority of times.

Im prolly overthinking this but since im approaching it as a practice in theory my thinking is that theres only a certain % of flops that hit his range hard, i.e. akx, axx, kxx, kjx, kqx, etc on flops like this and moreso on flops that arent this my 3bet may get a check and free turn card, set up a semi bluff opportunity, hit a set, and/or serve to make sure im not only 3 betting monsters only in the spot


feel free to shoot holes in my logic just help me understand why its flawed while u do

[Sasquach991]

Does it ever depend on your image at the table? There's rarely any discussion about this in the BC but some at the higher levels. Why?

[Donachello]

he's got a picture of a beagle as his avatar

Snap fold and get the fuck off the table.

Not joking. Just leave the table you have no chance.

[bhaley66]

i dont think his continuing range here changes much from his utg opening range, if anything maybe throw out aq, kq but this will be the minority of times.

Im prolly overthinking this but since im approaching it as a practice in theory my thinking is that theres only a certain % of flops that hit his range hard, i.e. akx, axx, kxx, kjx, kqx, etc on flops like this and moreso on flops that arent this my 3bet may get a check and free turn card, set up a semi bluff opportunity, hit a set, and/or serve to make sure im not only 3 betting monsters only in the spot


feel free to shoot holes in my logic just help me understand why its flawed while u do

You are behind his initial range w/these hands, are further behind his continuing range. The only reason I can think to do this is 3bet bluff, where you NEED much more information on villain, and opponents behind you... ie. you need to estimate fold equity...

[StarGrinder]

LOL @ DC

@ Sasquach... because the lower the limit, the more weak, passive and less aware the player, and hence the less image and polarization matter.

[Sasquach991]

Ok, 2 hands on him and he's 0/0 over that large sample, and bought in full, and he's got a picture of a beagle as his avatar.

Usually the beagle is a reg. If it was a pomeranian, doberman, or a bulldog then it's a fish.

[StarGrinder]

Usually the beagle is a reg. If it was a pomeranian, doberman, or a bulldog then it's a fish.

What about a pitbull? Just some random asshole?

[Sasquach991]

What about a pitbull? Just some random asshole?

Biggest fish is the pitbull with the exception of the player with a picture of themself with sunglasses on.

[Monsieur_chat]

What about a pitbull? Just some random asshole?

You're getting the hang of this

[celtic123]

Does it ever depend on your image at the table? There's rarely any discussion about this in the BC but some at the higher levels. Why?

I Think this is because the higher levels have thinking villians , i.e. What does my opponent think, he thinks, I think hes got .and that type of stuff.

At the BC level I need to fix lots of things before I try to get too smart, personally.

[celtic123]

Or let's say you flat with 33 and the flop comes down 467r. The UTG checks, you check and the CO checks. The BTN bets min and you feel obligated to call. The next card is a 3. What the hell do you do? You're still behind all sorts of straights and higher sets out of position for two more streets of action. Not a great prospect if you ask me.

I'm more inclined to flat hands like 77-JJ here because 1) they can sort of stand up to some extent should a squeeze occur. Additionally, hands like 99-JJ not only have showdown value should the UTG whiff the flop with a hand like AK. Also, should you flop a set with one of these hands there is a higher chance that the UTG raiser's range has also gotten a piece of the flop and will be less likely to fold.

I'm always 3betting KK+ (unless the guy is like 1/0 over 500 hands) since you don't want a lot of people flatting behind you with trash that could easily hit a disguised monster in position against you when you have a hand that is hard to lay down. Also, you fare well against both the UTG's 4betting and flatting ranges. QQ is a bit more interesting since a lot of people at FR don't stack off with less than AK and KK+. This makes stacking off a bad proposition and you still would prefer to have a bunch of trash hands IP vs you. At this point I think the dynamic between you and the UTG raiser becomes much more important. However, you could just go ahead and 3bet and fold to a 4b or shove.

Anyway, I rambled a bit but whatever.

I love every bit of this. it needs to be stickied somehow.

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[surviva316]

this thread is just wow.

back on track: my standard play 10 hands in on someone who seems reggish would be to snap flat 22-TT here. this COULD change if someone left to act is a mega maniac squeezer but that's so rare at micro FR games to an UTG open and UTG+1 flat, that it hardly needs to be dignified. i could 3b JJ/QQ here some of the time if for whatever reason i felt like he was going to be PFR/c'ing OOP WAY too much, but i doubt i'd have the read just 10 hands in. my standard is to flat those hands too (and only becomes moreso the case the more lose fish there are left to act or the more squeeze crazed maniacs there are left to act.)

it's obv like 1 in a million that i don't 3b KK/AA here (but of course JKDS may very well point out that there are possible spots where it might be most ev, because there are)

[Icanhastreebet]

77-99-Im inclined to include these with the 22-66 group although i feel like 3 betting light here is an option to be considered

No, for a couple of reasons, 77-99 is actually strong enough to win at showdown on it's own some % of the time, 77-99 blocks some of his folding range(When you have 77 and he's opening 77 UTG u block 5 combos that they would be likely to fold to a 3b).

[Icanhastreebet]

Biggest fish is the pitbull with the exception of the player with a picture of themself with sunglasses on.

nah people w/ pictures of babies are SLIGHTLY worst and people w/ pictures of themselves w/ sunglasses are usually some kind of live fish probably plays like 29/11 or some shit

[Icanhastreebet]

this thread is just wow.

back on track: my standard play 10 hands in on someone who seems reggish would be to snap flat 22-TT here. this COULD change if someone left to act is a mega maniac squeezer but that's so rare at micro FR games to an UTG open and UTG+1 flat, that it hardly needs to be dignified. i could 3b JJ/QQ here some of the time if for whatever reason i felt like he was going to be PFR/c'ing OOP WAY too much, but i doubt i'd have the read just 10 hands in. my standard is to flat those hands too (and only becomes moreso the case the more lose fish there are left to act or the more squeeze crazed maniacs there are left to act.)

it's obv like 1 in a million that i don't 3b KK/AA here (but of course JKDS may very well point out that there are possible spots where it might be most ev, because there are)

I think flatting KK/AA is a pretty std strat in these spots for some people because they want to be able to flat a wider range w/o being exploited + they opt to pretty much never 3b bluff in this spot, I mean seriously how often do you 3b UTG as a bluff from UTG+1?

[Icanhastreebet]

not to say that 3bing it isn't correct v non-thinking opponents and fish, I just think 3bing a nits (say 11/9) UTG open w/ AA isn't as great as flatting it is