WTF low limit!?! nothing applies...

[revolvingiris]

So I have realized something about this forum...Most of the conversations I get in to don't apply to me (if they do I get lucky). I play mostly micro mtts trying to role build and understand the game better. So I post there and run into sometimes deep conversations with chadrian, mcatdog, rilla, dmrcboy. Who play way above my roll in err everything. So what I realized today is that a majority of the concepts they are all talking about are above my $. Sure, some things apply but mostly its a very different game after the $10 buy in games...So I guess with that comes an important lesson. If you are looking for help on something, its best to talk with people who are after the same goals as you. I would like to be a destroying player some day but for the time being. I belong in the beginners circle.

[Stacks]

Their concepts and thoughts all still apply to you. When you say you are playing against a fish, they know how to play against a fish. When you say this is likely their range, they can critique the range you give, and give not only a better range, but the correct line to take. It's absurd to say their advice doesn't apply to you because you play for less money.. Poker is still poker, and +EV is still +EV. A player playing 60/30 in a $500 buyin MTT, and donk bets 100% of flop, is going to be the same as a 60/30 playing in a $5 tourney that donk bets 100% of flops.

[kmind]

Yeah their advice for sure has to do with poker and you are playing poker. The ONLY difference is the villains. It's correct to say "their advice about certain villains do not apply to me because I have yet to see one" but don't say their advice in general doesn't apply.

[bjsaust]

You're making a pretty big mistake if you think their advice doesnt apply at micro levels.

Their concepts and thoughts all still apply to you. When you say you are playing against a fish, they know how to play against a fish. When you say this is likely their range, they can critique the range you give, and give not only a better range, but the correct line to take. It's absurd to say their advice doesn't apply to you because you play for less money.. Poker is still poker, and +EV is still +EV. A player playing 60/30 in a $500 buyin MTT, and donk bets 100% of flop, is going to be the same as a 60/30 playing in a $5 tourney that donk bets 100% of flops.

reg battles in NL cash don't apply because there are no good low stakes regs ldo

[Stacks]

Their concepts and thoughts all still apply to you. When you say you are playing against a fish, they know how to play against a fish. When you say this is likely their range, they can critique the range you give, and give not only a better range, but the correct line to take. It's absurd to say their advice doesn't apply to you because you play for less money.. Poker is still poker, and +EV is still +EV. A player playing 60/30 in a $500 buyin MTT, and donk bets 100% of flop, is going to be the same as a 60/30 playing in a $5 tourney that donk bets 100% of flops.

reg battles in NL cash don't apply because there are no good low stakes regs ldo

What was it that I said that had to do with reg battles?

Their concepts and thoughts all still apply to you. When you say you are playing against a fish, they know how to play against a fish. When you say this is likely their range, they can critique the range you give, and give not only a better range, but the correct line to take. It's absurd to say their advice doesn't apply to you because you play for less money.. Poker is still poker, and +EV is still +EV. A player playing 60/30 in a $500 buyin MTT, and donk bets 100% of flop, is going to be the same as a 60/30 playing in a $5 tourney that donk bets 100% of flops.

reg battles in NL cash don't apply because there are no good low stakes regs ldo

What was it that I said that had to do with reg battles?

No, I'm making a point that not all concepts apply.

[revolvingiris]

No No, I wasn't saying that their advice should be avoided or that concepts such as +or-EV don't apply...I was saying more like when they are discussing ranges of certain types of opponents or when to bluff-raise-check-call-raise-fold with the missed redraw (err what?). Basically any advice is great advice but stakes and players do change and so should the advice.

[JKDS]

because chadrian, mcatdog, rilla, and dmrcboy all ignore the fact that different stakes have different players and adapt their advice.

[revolvingiris]

Why is everyone turning this into a hate thread? I'm not an idiot who thinks these people are worthless and everything they say is useless to me. All I was trying to do was shed light on the fact that there is a lot of good information on this site and a lot of it doesn't pertain to the lower limits. Yes there is advice for lower limit players but a majority of the threads read (for me) were in places where the information was geared more towards higher levels and more advanced play. All I was trying to do was help other players like me who can get advice directly in the forum they would benefit most from.

[Keith]

Would you think that the forum is split up into seperate sections for the hell of it ?? or because beginners can post here and get advice pertinent to playing at these stakesmid stakes players can post in the mid stakes forum etc. Saying that advice from the higher stakes player doesn't apply to you erm....lap it up it will come in handy when you get to the higher stakes and think about what you are being told and see if you can apply it or modify it for your current stakes.

[revolvingiris]

Would you think that the forum is split up into seperate sections for the hell of it ?? or because beginners can post here and get advice pertinent to playing at these stakesmid stakes players can post in the mid stakes forum etc. Saying that advice from the higher stakes player doesn't apply to you erm....lap it up it will come in handy when you get to the higher stakes and think about what you are being told and see if you can apply it or modify it for your current stakes.

Since when did I say that it doesn't apply to me? I said at the levels I am playing currently not all the concepts they discuss pertain to me at the moment because the play style is much more ABC. I never said they gave worthless info to me ever...But apparently this thread should just die because too many people have taken it WWAAYYY to personally.

[Robb]

So I have realized something about this forum...Most of the conversations I get in to don't apply to me (if they do I get lucky).

Used to think this way myself.

I ... run into sometimes deep conversations with chadrian, mcatdog, rilla, dmrcboy.

Anything those guys say about MTT's is worth a listen, and a reread if you don't get it the first couple times. Bookmark the stuff that sounds cool but that you didn't get and go back to it later.

If you are looking for help on something, its best to talk with people who are after the same goals as you.

Their goals are pretty much the same as yours, with 4 more zeros after the significant digit.

I belong in the beginners circle.

Right now, most discussions in the BC are cash game related. Lots of the FTR regs who answer threads can help, but no one can give you better MTT advice than those guys in the MTT forum.

I understand you feel this turned into a hate thread, but it's not. If you wanna learn to destroy MTT's, those are the guys who can teach you, and the rest of us are hoping you'll get back in there and keep posting and reading and learning.

My advice is that you should learn to ask questions that lead to good discussions that are appropriate to your level. Questions like: "what read would you need to stack off here and why?" Post your own HH's and ask the regs what additional information and reads you should be providing. If you let them know where you're at in your learning, what you understand and what you don't, they'll spell it out for you or at least give enough additional information that you'll be able to work it out for yourself.

Also, remember the search feature (use google with FTR domain, or FTR search) and find great threads from the past five years that address topics you're interested in. Another good search trick is to click on a name like chardrian. In the player profile, you can "view all posts by player" or "view all threads by player." Click on the "threads" and glance through the titles. Find some good topics where they started the discussion and see what you can learn. The funny thing is that lots of those guys were posting on FTR a few years ago when they were playing lower stakes, so some of their older posts will nail your current learning curve.

[Jason]

Your topic was likely taken sensitively because of how it was worded plus a common theme among some beginners @ the micro stakes is that the fundamental rules go out the window and they'd be better off moving up ... even though they can't beat the easiest games.

I would suspect there are several things that do apply at higher levels and not lower levels, but not everything and maybe not most things.

I agree that it is important to bounce ideas and follow threads of those who are in a similar situation, but obviously being open minded about all advice is the best way to go. I get irritated in threads when someone says someone else is absolutely WRONG about something related to poker. Who knows who is right? We're all always in a discovery process in a very dynamic game.

[Luco]

The topic title says nothing applies. That's bound to cause some rub.

[x] a few things may not apply
[ ] nothing applies
[ ] Advice given in a thread you've made won't help or isn't adapted to your stakes
[ ] you should stop asking players WHO HAVE BEATEN YOUR STAKES for help with BEATING YOUR STAKES

[Robb]

The topic title says nothing applies. That's bound to cause some rub.

[ ] a few things may not apply
[ ] nothing applies
[ ] Advice given in a thread you've made won't help or isn't adapted to your stakes
[ xxx ] you should stop asking players WHO HAVE BEATEN YOUR STAKES for help with BEATING YOUR STAKES

ldo

[bjsaust]

I havnt read any replies since my last one, but since the threads still going. These guys are good enough to adjust their advice and ranges to the type of play in micro/small buyin tournies, so if you're asking for advice, as long as you mention the buyin and any reads, then their advice should be gold.

[revolvingiris]

So I have realized something about this forum...Most of the conversations I get in to don't apply to me (if they do I get lucky).

Used to think this way myself.

I ... run into sometimes deep conversations with chadrian, mcatdog, rilla, dmrcboy.

Anything those guys say about MTT's is worth a listen, and a reread if you don't get it the first couple times. Bookmark the stuff that sounds cool but that you didn't get and go back to it later.

If you are looking for help on something, its best to talk with people who are after the same goals as you.

Their goals are pretty much the same as yours, with 4 more zeros after the significant digit.

I belong in the beginners circle.

Right now, most discussions in the BC are cash game related. Lots of the FTR regs who answer threads can help, but no one can give you better MTT advice than those guys in the MTT forum.

I understand you feel this turned into a hate thread, but it's not. If you wanna learn to destroy MTT's, those are the guys who can teach you, and the rest of us are hoping you'll get back in there and keep posting and reading and learning.

My advice is that you should learn to ask questions that lead to good discussions that are appropriate to your level. Questions like: "what read would you need to stack off here and why?" Post your own HH's and ask the regs what additional information and reads you should be providing. If you let them know where you're at in your learning, what you understand and what you don't, they'll spell it out for you or at least give enough additional information that you'll be able to work it out for yourself.

Also, remember the search feature (use google with FTR domain, or FTR search) and find great threads from the past five years that address topics you're interested in. Another good search trick is to click on a name like chardrian. In the player profile, you can "view all posts by player" or "view all threads by player." Click on the "threads" and glance through the titles. Find some good topics where they started the discussion and see what you can learn. The funny thing is that lots of those guys were posting on FTR a few years ago when they were playing lower stakes, so some of their older posts will nail your current learning curve.

Thank you for understanding where I was coming from...My issue is that I am used to playing higher live stakes than I am playing online (relatively speaking). I play 100nl live but play weaker ol MTT's because quite frankly I'm just not that great ol. I try to be but even I notice a difference between live and ol play not to mention the different concepts per level of buy in. I have posted enough on here to know those guys (and MANY others that I didn't mention) know what the fuck they are talking about. I have used a ton of information from this site, 2+2, and books to better myself. I was just trying to shine light on the fact that I love reading stuff from iowaskinsfan or seeing the next intense high stakes odds mathematics (fill in the X) from anyone. However, it just may not be relevant to me at this current phase of OL play. Not because its stupid or not worth listening to but mainly because I can't use it at the exact given moment. We all have thresholds of how much energy we have to apply to a certain subject. If you get burnt out learning things that you can't use or learn them too early. This can stunt the growth of whoever is trying to focus and get better...If your a long distance runner. Your not going to jump right in and race the Olympics before you even train or run practice marathons are you? I believe strongly in building blocks and although they can be put together in many ways some just cant come before others...@ Lucothefish I know that's what the topic says. A topic title is used to spark interest and by the looks of the quality of people who responded I chose the right one. The subject however defines what the title means. I see a lot of poker players who I have a ton respect for responded in this thread. So I really have nothing to feel sorry or stupid for. Although, if I am an idiot at least it attracts the likes of some really smart people. So if that's the case I'll proudly wear that title!

[revolvingiris]

revolvingiris wrote:
If you are looking for help on something, its best to talk with people who are after the same goals as you.

Robb wrote:
Their goals are pretty much the same as yours, with 4 more zeros after the significant digit.

This is pretty funny

[Stacks]

Funny but it's true. When you understand poker you will realize why this thread got "heated". It's pretty simple. Your job is to make the play that gains you the most value in the long run. When you provide stats/reads/buyin/etc, the advice you get from the good players will be good advice. And much better advice than getting advice from players that haven't proven themselves to be solid players.

Just because the buyin is smaller doesn't mean it isn't poker. You still have a range, villain still has a range, and your job is to make the play most profitable for your range, against villains range. And well... the better players will help you with this more than the weak-tight BC n00b who thinks you should fold everything, just because he runs bad.

[chardrian]

I rarely, if ever, get pms.

[Parasurama]

how is "reg battles" a concept?

how is "reg battles" a concept?

concepts in reg battles don't apply
here's a concept for a reg battle:
don't 3b for value and fold to a 4b
don't raise the flop for value and fold to a 3b

but I've done both vs. fish because they have super tight 4b and flop 3b ranges (both pretty much nuts)
not all fish, but the ones that do I can fold to a min 3b on the flop with top pair

[Parasurama]

how is "reg battles" a concept?

concepts in reg battles don't apply
here's a concept for a reg battle:
don't 3b for value and fold to a 4b
don't raise the flop for value and fold to a 3b

but I've done both vs. fish because they have super tight 4b and flop 3b ranges (both pretty much nuts)
not all fish, but the ones that do I can fold to a min 3b on the flop with top pair

Ok but isn't it much more flexible and useful if we just assign different ranges to different players? You're just not thinking well if you say, "oh look I raised the flop for value and a reg 3b me, LOL SHIP."

[drmcboy]

FWIW on sundays I usually play the two big $10 tourneys on stars, the 22 on FT and with the awesome new breaks on FT I'll play any 24 freeze that's running while I'm in the mood for tourneys. I do not play exactly the same game I do playing 100+ and I would not give the same advice assuming a BI is provided in the post. If you think any tourney has worse players than the sunday hundred grand, you have not played it.

Also the Sunday 50 FO 80/200 grand may be worse than the average 10 FO these days in terms of quality of play (woot!) and the FT 24s are not much different either. then sometimes I'll have a 70 tilt freeze going next to the 24 and I have to keep checking the guarantee to remember which is which because of the dumb things I keep seeing the 70 guys do, or even the good (or at least tight) play at the 24.

I'm a few glasses deep and rambling but the point is you'll be surprised how small the differences are as you move up. Some of that is probably losing the perspective of only playing low BIs but the truth is a ton of tourney players at all levels are horrible. As you move up people of course get better, especially pre flop and more of your tables or seats will be tough. But it isn't nearly as extreme as you think it will be. Never forget that Jerry Yang won the WSOP.

We need all the posts we can get in the MTT forum although you should post wherever you get the best results.

how is "reg battles" a concept?

concepts in reg battles don't apply
here's a concept for a reg battle:
don't 3b for value and fold to a 4b
don't raise the flop for value and fold to a 3b

but I've done both vs. fish because they have super tight 4b and flop 3b ranges (both pretty much nuts)
not all fish, but the ones that do I can fold to a min 3b on the flop with top pair

Ok but isn't it much more flexible and useful if we just assign different ranges to different players? You're just not thinking well if you say, "oh look I raised the flop for value and a reg 3b me, LOL SHIP."

you're not thinking well if you raise the flop and then somehow completely disregard being shipped on
basically regs have tight calling ranges and wide raising ranges which is why if you have a hand you don't want to ship in you'd better let them barrel you instead of raising yourself
so this is a product of the fact that when you raise you'll get called by less hands that beat you than you will get bluffed out of the pot if you plan on folding

[revolvingiris]

If there isn't a huge difference between BI's. Why is there such a strong emphasis placed on it?

[bikes]

this thread tilts the shit outta me. nothing is more annoying than saying the concepts small - high stakes players talk about are irrelevant in the micros.

[Stacks]

this thread tilts the shit outta me. nothing is more annoying than saying the concepts small - high stakes players talk about are irrelevant in the micros.

[revolvingiris]

I rarely, if ever, get pms.

Is this an invitation

[Fortitude]

lol i feel the same way learning about ICM and FE and +EV with the $1+.20 SnG at PS

[revolvingiris]

this thread tilts the shit outta me. nothing is more annoying than saying the concepts small - high stakes players talk about are irrelevant in the micros.

Then you should probably not read the thread? From the second I posted this it has run WAY out of the direction I was trying to take it. I never said all concepts dont apply. I NEVER SAID ALL CONCEPTS DONT APPLY. I also never ONCE said that their concepts are irrelevant. If I misspoke or someone took what I said the wrong way, I am sorry. But ask instead of accusing or assuming and certainly dont speak for people when you yourself don't fully understand the OP.