Which moveup will be the hardest?

[AFchung]

I started at 2NL and grinded my way to 10NL where I'm sitting at right now. However my roll is getting to about 20 BI's for 25NL and I was wondering which moveups are the hardest?

10NL -> 25NL? or 25NL -> 50NL?

[Sir Pawnalot]

I think this varies a lot between different sites, time of day, randomness etc.

My experience have been a bit awkward though. At micro stakes there were a lot of players who were pretty serious about their game and played a solid tight/somewhat aggressive game.

I am very convinced that you are more than good enough for 50NL and 100NL. Do not be afraid- most people suck even if it is 10 NL, 25 NL, 50 NL, 100 NL and even 200 NL.

From what I have seen, Pokerstars and Fulltilt consists of much better players than smaller sites.

50 NL and 100 NL is almost easier IMO, because you already know the ABC TAG game and can exploit it whilst there are still a lot of fish. I mean- I see people calling an all in bet with a backdoor gutshot.. In addition to that there is more reckless betting and its much easier to trap players, pots are usually bigger and people try to outplay you more.

The average poker player is...average- You are not. (Hell, you are FTR member for christ sake..)

Poker is poker- stakes does not matter, only the players you are up against..

[Parasurama]

The hardest one for me was 10NL->25NL but i'm only at 100NL right now. I really don't know why it was so tough, probably because I was a nit.

[Robb]

The move up that will be hardest is the one your game and bankroll aren't ready for, and that's hard to predict. For me, it was 25nl. I learned at that point that I'm bankroll nit and need some "cushion" to be successful. So I stockpiled the BI's for moving up to 50nl and did fine.

And, yeah, whenever you hit a wall where you're game isn't ready, the move up will torture you until you learn more.

[Jason]

For any one site, I always assume the harder moves are in the higher stakes by virtue of supply, demand, and survival. If you're comparing one site's stakes to another site's stakes, there's likely to be more variation and that might not hold up as consistently. But, hopefully you'll find out soon enough for yourself.

[Sir Pawnalot]

There is also an element of schooling. Some lucky fish might win a MTT and give it a shot on stakes they are not ready for.

Assuming that everyone has build up their roll from a very small bankroll is a mistake. Some people will keep depositing. Others have so much money it does not really matter to them if they lose. For some poker is all about having fun.

My point is that the majority of people are not like us FTR members. They are not studying the game, reviewing their hand histories and discussing hands and poker concepts.

Assuming that players at 100 NL are good is a fallacy. For me they are all fish until proven otherwise.

[Micro2Macro]

I remember one time I read an article by Daniel Negreanu. He said that when he sits down at a table he just assumes everyones a donkey. He said even at high stakes everyone he plays against is a donkey. He mentioned Jamie Gold being a donkey too. Everyone's just a donkey, no need to worry about tough players, they will prove themselves to be tough. As for the rest, they're just donkeys.

I wish I still had a copt of that amusing article...

[Robb]

I remember one time I read an article by Daniel Negreanu. He said that when he sits down at a table he just assumes everyones a donkey. He said even at high stakes everyone he plays against is a donkey. He mentioned Jamie Gold being a donkey too. Everyone's just a donkey, no need to worry about tough players, they will prove themselves to be tough. As for the rest, they're just donkeys.

I wish I still had a copt of that amusing article...

So what if you sit down at a table with Daniel Negreanu? Just assume he's a donkey?

[Micro2Macro]

LOL

Well he would be a known as a great player, so I guess not.

I think the point Daniel was trying to make was don't fear the game. Don't fear higher stakes, if you do you'll just get eaten alive. So when asking the question of which move up is the hardest, I myself wouldn't worry much about that since it will be apparent after it has happened. I think going into a game with a scared/timid mindset is killer, just assume you have what it takes to compete until you get shut down after you play your best. You won't play your best if you are worried about getting shut down.

[Sir Pawnalot]

Wow- I think like Daniel!

Having a winning attitude is vital in all sports. Whenever you do not believe you can do something- you will fail.

When you do move up it is great to have bankrolls on a couple of sites so that you have more options at table selection.

Biggest issue when moving up is the psychological impact bigger bets have on you. If you start thinking in terms of big blinds you can easily jump between stakes.

Assuming that Daniel is a fish is a mistake- because he has proven otherwise...

[Micro2Macro]

[quote="Sir Pawnalot"]Wow- I think like Daniel!

Having a winning attitude is vital in all sports. Whenever you do not believe you can do something- you will fail.

When you do move up it is great to have bankrolls on a couple of sites so that you have more options at table selection.

Biggest issue when moving up is the psychological impact bigger bets have on you. If you start thinking in terms of big blinds you can easily jump between stakes.[/[quote]

This highlights what I was trying to touch on really well too.

[Sir Pawnalot]

Yeah, but I wrote the reply before I saw your second post...

But to answer the original question:

My hardest move-up was from 2c-4c to 5c -10c. Grinding without making any real money was a real test of patience. Finishing a 2 hour session 8 cent down is...not good for your mental state. Also frustrating to never being able to bluff because of all the calling stations at that time.

Easiest move was from 25- 50 an 100. Same game, still a lot of fish- and finally....some freakin fold equity!!!!

[GatorJH]

And, yeah, whenever you hit a wall where you're game isn't ready, the move up will torture you until you learn more.

That must be $100NL for me. I am down almost $700 through just under 5k hands. GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR

[daven]

each limit up is a little harder than the last. The average reg gets better, there are more regs, less 50-4 fish, etc. As for which step is hardest? I think every player finds this different. The impact of playing for what you may consider material amounts of money is understated.

[Ragnar4]

[quote="Micro2Macro"][quote="Sir Pawnalot"]Wow- I think like Daniel!

Having a winning attitude is vital in all sports. Whenever you do not believe you can do something- you will fail.

When you do move up it is great to have bankrolls on a couple of sites so that you have more options at table selection.

Biggest issue when moving up is the psychological impact bigger bets have on you. If you start thinking in terms of big blinds you can easily jump between stakes.[/

This highlights what I was trying to touch on really well too.

I would think that your typical regs opponents skill has MUCH more to do with how tough it is to move up than anything else.

What I'm finding is that in the early levels, skill tends to increase rather exponentially instead of at a flat predicatable rate. I beat 2nl for 20bb/100 for like 8k hands. Now at 5nl I'm struggling at around 5-7, and if I keep up this current BE streak I'm going to dip even lower.

I think this occurs because you gain a multitude of skills between jumps at the lowest levels.

To win at freechips, you only need to understand hand (both preflop and postflop) strength.

To win at 2nl, you need to understand hand strength, position, and gaining Value.

To win at 5nl, I'm finding I need to understand table selection, position, gaining value, basic ranges, blockers, hand strength, and isolating weak players.

Hopefully at 10nl I only add one or two more skillsets to this list.

But I would argue that the higher you progress, the number of skills and difficulty of application of those skills determines how hard the leap up is.

It's also worthwhile to note here, that how YOU understand those skills is the most important obstacle here. Your jump to 10nl may be stupid hard because you just are really struggling with ranges.

So to say "The jump from 25-50nl is the hardest" is way wrong, because it was only hardest for that guy because he struggled with whatever concepts are required to have a good grasp in, in order to be successful at that level.

[Sir Pawnalot]

"Easiest move was from 25NL- 50NL and 100 NL (edit)."

Stating a personal experience can not be "way wrong".

AND WHO SAID THAT REGS WERE SKILLFULL!!! They are playing 16 tables and making decisions based on their HUD statistics. HUDS only show the average of the statistics. SO that while the reg is constantly putting you on a wrong range, and we have his tendencies nailed- we win. Regs are just as ez to beat as fish- and since there are more of them in NL 50 and NL 100 i find those games easier. Fish have many commonalities with the shark...

Remember that I am not a multitabler. Bot like ABC TAG poker may not work at all stakes- you may have to use your brain too.

Beyond 25 NL the most important skill set is adjustments and gear changes.

Can anyone explain how you use your clever ranges versus someone who plays loose-passive (4 hands), loose-aggressive (5 hands), tight-aggressive 14 hands, loose-aggressive (3 hands), tight-passive 7 hands...
Did you even notice he changed gears- or did you just see that his stats were 21/15 something, something... Did you calculate how your own range changed villains range..? Or that a maniac affected villains range?

Assigning ranges is very good and all that- but poker is way more complicated than saying that villain has AK, AQ, AJ, AA, KK, QQ, JJ, TT in his range and we have 60 % equity against that range so we shove...
Villain might have changed gears and have a much, much tighter 4 bet range than you are assuming. What you are doing is guessing- and since villain knows what range you put him on- he will keep surprising you.

It seems like I am disagreeing with you, but I am not. Just clearing up some misunderstandings. But I do think that "levels" is something in your head. Stakes and levels do not necessarily correlate.

Back to the original question
My hardest move up was from 2cent-4 cent to 5 cent- 10 cent, simply because there were no money to earn so motivation was low.

[bjsaust]

Havnt read the whole thread. Imo, the biggest move is 10nl -> 25nl. Thats where you start finding regs and people who have some idea about 3-betting. Its not hard, but people generally overreact to it initially. I personally found very little difference between 25nl and 50nl, and 100nl didnt seem like a big deal either. Hopefully by the time you move up, you've learnt enough to make the changes easy enough to cope with.

Lots of people seem to struggle with the jump to 200nl. I think a lot of your rakeback/fpp grinding regs stop and sit at 100nl. Theres definately still fish at 200nl, but you start running into some actual good players too.

[bjsaust]

Also someone kind of alluded to this, but the fish are the same at each level, or near enough. Once you learn to really exploit fish (personally I think this is my strongest point at the table), its just a matter of finding them and getting good position on them. If all you do is pass blinds between yourself and the regs you'll still make your profits from the fish, especially since a lot of regs dont get that and do a poor job of exploiting them (its always funny to see a huge waiting list of regs targetting one specific fish then when they sit down they play the same as they would v's anyone else).

Over time you'll learn to exploit regs too, but learning the tendencies of fish and how to exploit them is the $'s for starters.

[d0zer]

I found 25->50 hard my first time, and 100-200 hard my first three times

But don't blow skill differences out of proportion between the limits. It's the same game. Table select well and you can find 100NL tables easier than some 10NL tables. It's just that on average they're not...

The mental hurdles of dealing with the "bigger money" is the biggest thing you've gotta overcome when moving up. Not changing your game is by far the more important thing, and it's hard for a lot of people when they assume the game will be drastically different.

[bjsaust]

100nl was the first time the money daunted me, but I got over it in a day or so.

[Sir Pawnalot]

Feel ya bjaust. Never thought about money before I won a 187 dollar pot in 100 NL.

Previously, at the micros, I used to joke about buying a can of coke after stacking someone...

I have an addictive personality so after I started winning more at poker than at a regular job I had to withdraw and cut back. I did not want poker to stop me from becoming a university lecturer. I also have borderline asperger syndrome and it is absolutely vital for me to train my social skills and maintain good relationships. (I am a socially retarded Prom King...lol)

Money will not buy happiness. Winning in poker can in some ways be detrimental to your most important goals in life. My way of looking at it is that I am training for a poker career when I get 50-60 years old. (25)

We need that Sunshine

[will641]

10nl to 25nl was probably a harder transition more because of the math of it. dropping a buy in means having to grind out 2.5 buy ins vs 2 to make up for it.

[Airles™]

Seriously, as someone stated above, thinking about bets and pots in terms of BBs instead of actual money can do wonders, especially if you've moved up before being mentally ready.

[Outlaw]

To me 25NL is easier than 10NL for some reason... I never figured out why, maybe its because you actually start to gain FPPs and can get some rakeback. You really get hammered at lower stakes.

Anyone else had this experience?

[hangchiong]

Some Moving up Stakes are sites dependable,some are not.

I started with 2nl before i knew this site,but my skill was shit.Now i am at 25NL and im getting the grasp of beating micro easily and moving up to 50NL soon.
But 10nl to 25nl wasnt so easy at 1st.Ups and down.
Hopefully i wont find 50NL hard.