Comments: NL betting and some other random thoughts

[jyms]

{Discuss: http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...oker-32893.htm }

Beginners generally have trouble knowing how much to bet when they hit a hand. For the most part they know to "take away the other guy's pot odds" but there's more to betting than that. Because... tell me if this happens to you... You have AK in early position. You raise it preflop and get callers. You flop top pair and their is a draw on the board. So you bet the pot PLUS on the flop and turn with someone calling you. On the river the draw MISSES and you make a smaller bet. The other guy raises the crap out of you (or even pushes). You figure him for a busted draw, call him, and get destacked by the set he flopped when his pocket pair hit. You think JESUS CHRIST, WHAT DO I HAVE TO DO TO WIN A HAND AROUND HERE!!! And either reload or change tables because you're embarrassed

holy shit, is this me or what. This is what I was asking about on another thread. I thought it seemed to be only where I play because everything I read is about guys killing the low stakes. These guys over bet middle pair, will call any raise till they see if they hit, which they do alot, and seem to suck out alot. Is it something i'm doing then. I can call their hands fairly well when they are in a pot with someone else but as soon as it's me. Reraise middle pair and screw me up totally. It got to the point where I donked off a bunch of chips by calling reraises on river cards to see what they had, just to see if I could get a read on what it id they do, and when.

[aokrongly]

yea, well don't do that.

Now you know why. Try it. You make your money from bad players calling when they shouldn't - which happens non-stop. But when they raise you that means they hit something magic (either on that card or earlier and they were hiding behind your big bets). The magic part of half bet pots (even with draws, or Especiallywith draws) with hands like tptk, 2 pair and an overpair is that they prompt weaker hands to call and stronger hands to raise. If you bet less then you invite a bluff raise or speculative raise, if you bet the pot or more then monster hands can hide behind your bet.

The same is true of action in front. Just believe it and it'll work out for you. Disregard it and you might get away with it a few times, but when it catches you you will lose more that one time than youwon the other times you didn't follow the rule.

If you are interested in more articles by me then below is a mini-digest of some of my articles on FTR.

I have dozens more free articles on NL Ring, MTT, SnG, 6-Max and my book PERFORMANCE POKER - NO LIMIT! available in full online. Just email me (by clicking my email link below) or PM me (by clicking the PM button below) and I will send you the link to all my writings.

You can see this in action here:
http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...753&highlight=
http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...oker-37660.htm

Here's a mini AOkronlgy Digest:
http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...057&highlight=
http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...957&highlight=
http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...652&highlight=
http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...175&highlight=
http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...199&highlight=
http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...196&highlight=
http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...386&highlight=
http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...530&highlight=
http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...156&highlight=
http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...869&highlight=
http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...589&highlight=
http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...642&highlight=
http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...=188610#188610
http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...763&highlight=
http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...762&highlight=
http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...222&highlight=
http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...539&highlight=
http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...263&highlight=

[jyms]

Like this??

PokerStars Game #4578762826: Hold'em No Limit ($0.01/$0.02) - 2006/04/09 -
23:39:50 (ET)
Table 'Kalchas III' 9-max Seat #9 is the button
Seat 1: BLACKJOHN ($3.56 in chips)
Seat 3: Philthos ($1.98 in chips)
Seat 4: Studmuffino ($2.62 in chips)
Seat 5: trainer_jyms ($2.83 in chips)
Seat 6: hongkongfewy ($4.79 in chips)
Seat 7: sodapoppa ($2.18 in chips)
Seat 8: bltmsu ($7.91 in chips)
Seat 9: farmerkel ($0.63 in chips)
BLACKJOHN: posts small blind $0.01
Philthos: posts big blind $0.02
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to trainer_jyms [Ac 8d]
Studmuffino: folds
trainer_jyms: calls $0.02
Lil Auggie leaves the table
hongkongfewy: raises $0.04 to $0.06
sodapoppa: folds
bltmsu: folds
farmerkel: calls $0.06
BLACKJOHN: calls $0.05
Philthos: calls $0.04
trainer_jyms: calls $0.04
*** FLOP *** [4d 3c 8c]
BLACKJOHN: checks
Philthos: checks
trainer_jyms: bets $0.10
smokingjoe68 joins the table at seat #2
hongkongfewy: calls $0.10
farmerkel: calls $0.10
BLACKJOHN: calls $0.10
Philthos: calls $0.10
*** TURN *** [4d 3c 8c] [8h]
BLACKJOHN: checks
Philthos: checks
trainer_jyms: bets $0.10
hongkongfewy: calls $0.10
farmerkel: calls $0.10
BLACKJOHN: calls $0.10
Philthos: calls $0.10
*** RIVER *** [4d 3c 8c 8h] [7c]
BLACKJOHN: checks
Philthos: checks
trainer_jyms: bets $0.30
hongkongfewy: folds
farmerkel: folds
BLACKJOHN: calls $0.30
Philthos: folds
*** SHOW DOWN ***
trainer_jyms: shows [Ac 8d] (three of a kind, Eights)
BLACKJOHN: shows [2c Qc] (a flush, Queen high)
BLACKJOHN collected $1.85 from pot

[aokrongly]

ummm... no. you called a raised pot with A8. That negates all previous advice. lol.

I know this is .01/.02 but I want to tell you something about this. There's a sports analogy. You Play the way you Practice. In other words if you practice sloppy because it's low risk then you'll play sloppy even when it's high risk.

I consider .01/.02 to be a training table. Anytime the maximum table buyin costs less than a Red Bull. Then anything you do there you should consider training.

You should be developing habits that help you play better, not more sloppy. You called a raise with A8. Would you do that at NL10, NL100, NL1000? Why are you doing it at NL.2?

Plus blackjohn never raised you back. He simply hid behind your betting. But people at .01/.02 really don't know anything about poker generally. They are just playing for fun. Bump up to .05/.10. It's not much more but people will play a little better there.

Regardless, don't play A8. This was fairly unlucky. And after the flop you played it fine. You flopped top pair, turned a set with top kicker, no worries. You bet it fine for that table. IF blackjohn had pushed allin, then that would be an example of what i'm talking about.

[SinkRox]

Sweet post, and bookmarked

However I think these rules of thumb are less aplicable to 6-max?

[cardsman1992]

ok, i'll go first

Raise--AT and above, KJ and above, PP 88+, any PP in an unraised pot LP

Call 3 x raises with any hand I raise with. Reraise with power As and PP TT+. Call minraises with Axs and Kxs if 3 people in pot or more. Don't call them if more than minraise (unless everyone is in the hand, then see the flop and let it go), or if reraised. Play for flushes, not TP.

Limp connectors down to 67, small PP (play for set value), limp Ax and Ks if I can get by with it.

I don't play unsuited middle aces at all because of the kicker, but I like suited little aces because of the added str8 possibility.

But I am LOSING MY ASS over the last 10K hands after creaming the first 10K hands. Your initial post about bet sizes might help because right now, I am losing the big pots and winning the small ones for a net loss.....

Thanks as always for your wisdom....please help!!!

Stakes 25NL full ring

[KingLizard]

I have struggled with betting just as you have outlined. My typical raise when my AK hits TPTK was to bet the pot. Everyone would fold and I would win a small pot. "MY" thinking and experience was ... if I raise less then the opponent stays in and it is only a matter of time before they suck out. But I will take this advice next time out and we'll see what happens.

[andy-akb]

ok, i'll go first

Raise--AT and above, KJ and above, PP 88+, any PP in an unraised pot LP

Call 3 x raises with any hand I raise with. Reraise with power As and PP TT+. Call minraises with Axs and Kxs if 3 people in pot or more. Don't call them if more than minraise (unless everyone is in the hand, then see the flop and let it go), or if reraised. Play for flushes, not TP.

Limp connectors down to 67, small PP (play for set value), limp Ax and Ks if I can get by with it.

I don't play unsuited middle aces at all because of the kicker, but I like suited little aces because of the added str8 possibility.

But I am LOSING MY ASS over the last 10K hands after creaming the first 10K hands. Your initial post about bet sizes might help because right now, I am losing the big pots and winning the small ones for a net loss.....

Thanks as always for your wisdom....please help!!!

Stakes 25NL full ring

What is your VPIP, 30%+? I follow close to what AOK suggests in his 19 starting hands. Dont play AT [sometimes raise ATs in LP] and Limp QJ, KJ, KQ [usually ditch limping hands in EP] and raise AQ+ 99+ and 55+ when folded to in LP. For calling the raises Ill call with any pocket pair for a raise of less than 4-5xBB if they can pay me off for a set and fold AQ to a raise, any of my limping hands I also fold. Im not limping with anything less than AJs and certainly not calling a raise with those hands, I dont thinking calling minraises looking for a flush is profitable, but I could be wrong there. When folded to in LP I will rasie around A7s+ and maybe KTs+ if the players behind me are tight. Suited connectors I dont play much, and almost never limp them. When folded or after 1 limper in LP I will raise 98s+.

This is a very general guideline for how I play, I put a lot more emphasis on position than AOK does in the 19 starting hands, but he obviously assumes we will adapt based on our position as we grow as a player. Personally I feel like you are playing way too many hands from all of your positions and should tighten your starting requirements a little. The other thing is you should not be so eager to call a raise with any hand you would raise with simply because some of those are going to be dominated by your opponents raising range.

[jackvance]

For what it's worth, my reads:

*** FLOP *** [4d 3c 8c]
BLACKJOHN: checks
Philthos: checks
trainer_jyms: bets $0.10

Here I would bet the pot. You hit tptk. With three people in, you're giving everyone good odds to chase whatever magical cards they want. A pot-sized raise will narrow it down to one or none. (None is good too, you would have avoided the loss you got here from a guy hitting his flush) If your opponents will always fold to your raises.. they'll get used to it after it happens a couple of times and then start calling it. One of them might even be holding AK and not being able to let go cuz it's such a "good hand". Make him pay more to chase his 6 outs to victory.

*** TURN *** [4d 3c 8c] [8h]
BLACKJOHN: checks
Philthos: checks
trainer_jyms: bets $0.10

Still not too late here. Another 8 won't give any improvement to other hands. Bet the pot to either weed out or give bad odds to those with A2/A5/56/clubs hoping to get lucky. Half pot is good when you're unsure, but not against 3 opponents.

*** RIVER *** [4d 3c 8c 8h] [7c]

56 guy or club-suited guy might have just gotten lucky. With three people seeing the river, even trips isn't looking too good anymore. Now you're reached the point to raise and pray noone hit.

[andy-akb]

For what it's worth, my reads:

*** FLOP *** [4d 3c 8c]
BLACKJOHN: checks
Philthos: checks
trainer_jyms: bets $0.10

Here I would bet the pot. You hit tptk. With three people in, you're giving everyone good odds to chase whatever magical cards they want. A pot-sized raise will narrow it down to one or none. (None is good too, you would have avoided the loss you got here from a guy hitting his flush) If your opponents will always fold to your raises.. they'll get used to it after it happens a couple of times and then start calling it. One of them might even be holding AK and not being able to let go cuz it's such a "good hand". Make him pay more to chase his 6 outs to victory.

I agree with this.

*** TURN *** [4d 3c 8c] [8h]
BLACKJOHN: checks
Philthos: checks
trainer_jyms: bets $0.10

Still not too late here. Another 8 won't give any improvement to other hands. Bet the pot to either weed out or give bad odds to those with A2/A5/56/clubs hoping to get lucky. Half pot is good when you're unsure, but not against 3 opponents.

I agree.

*** RIVER *** [4d 3c 8c 8h] [7c]

56 guy or club-suited guy might have just gotten lucky. With three people seeing the river, even trips isn't looking too good anymore. Now you're reached the point to raise and pray noone hit.

This I disagree with. This river completes a fairly obvious flush draw which would be easy to see somebody chasing given the betting of the hero. Id check behind, why would you bet or even raise here?

Also, do you think he should have been in this hand to begind with? I think the biggest problem with this hand is him playing it especially in EP and especially after a raise.

[jackvance]

This I disagree with. This river completes a fairly obvious flush draw which would be easy to see somebody chasing given the betting of the hero. Id check behind, why would you bet or even raise here?

Because it's showing weakness. If you raised all the previous streets, you have basically been saying "I have a good hand" all the time. The other guys don't know what you have. But if you suddenly check.. they might think "hm, less confidence in his hand, maybe he doesn't have anything that strong afterall".

Plus you have trips, a possible draw that hits can't scare you. Someone might think you were drawing too or whatever, raise with LP (or just as an attempt to steal the pot) and you're gonna fold your trips then? If someone else would be raising, I'd be more tempted to check/call (if not too huge).

Obviously you would want to avoid these types of situations where you have TP (or here, trips) and a "possible draw" hits on the river with three people still in there. But there are other possibilities too ofcourse.. a guy could be holding overpair, a guy could have 2 pair, even a lower set etc. They'll bet too if you slow down on the river, and those you have beat.

Also, do you think he should have been in this hand to begind with?

No, A8 is a horrible hand to call with. It's not a drawing hand, it's not good for TP-situations. He actually hit one of the best flops imaginable with A8. TPTK. In a 4 people pot, drawing hands actually have more value than hands going for TP. A8 is neither a good drawing hand, not a good powerhand.

I think the biggest problem with this hand is him playing it especially in EP and especially after a raise.

Well, yeah. But as played I'd bet a bit over the pot on that flop and hope everyone folds. Ok it's TP but an 8 still gives many overpair vulnerabilities. I've taken a stack today with TT and A9 not letting go of his TPTK on a 9-high flop.

Don't play for TP with more than 2 opponents. And if it does come around, price them HARD for drawing and basically hope everyone folds.

[Rabid Dog]

He actually hit one of the best flops imaginable with A8.

He really hit one of the worst hands imaginable, because hitting the 8 on the flop as top pair kept him a hand he really shouldnt have been in to start with. And he didnt bet enough to push the others away from their hands. If that can be done at this level.

[jackvance]

He really hit one of the worst hands imaginable, because hitting the 8 on the flop as top pair kept him a hand he really shouldnt have been in to start with.

Calling a raise was the fault of that. After the call was a fact, that was a great flop. I mean, I really hope he wasn't calling in hopes of hitting a boat. If you call a raise and hit TPTK, you should be happy. (well, I am)

And he didnt bet enough to push the others away from their hands. If that can be done at this level.

You don't wanna push them off perse. If everyone at the table will pay more than the pot to chase a draw, I'm gonna get rich quickly.

[aokrongly]

ok, i'll go first

Raise--AT and above, KJ and above, PP 88+, any PP in an unraised pot LP

Call 3 x raises with any hand I raise with. Reraise with power As and PP TT+. Call minraises with Axs and Kxs if 3 people in pot or more. Don't call them if more than minraise (unless everyone is in the hand, then see the flop and let it go), or if reraised. Play for flushes, not TP.

Limp connectors down to 67, small PP (play for set value), limp Ax and Ks if I can get by with it.

I don't play unsuited middle aces at all because of the kicker, but I like suited little aces because of the added str8 possibility.

But I am LOSING MY ASS over the last 10K hands after creaming the first 10K hands. Your initial post about bet sizes might help because right now, I am losing the big pots and winning the small ones for a net loss.....

Thanks as always for your wisdom....please help!!!

Stakes 25NL full ring

What that list tells me is that you need to have a good preflop game when you raise preflop, because you're putting alot of money into the pot preflop with alot of hands. Alot of this depends on table dynamics. If the average % of players seeing the flop is less than 40% then your agressions should pay off. If it's 50% or more then you're going to have to catch cards to keep from losing your ass. So you need to watch that. Also, watch the average pot. If it's less than 15x the BB then it shows a willingness for players to fold postflop (i.e. postflop tightness). If, however it's more than 20x then it shows that you're going to have to win with cards and not just agression.

You're calling way too many unpaired hands into raised pots, IMO. It's one thing to be agressive with a wide range of cards, but what value is there in calling KJ with a raise in front, or AJ or AT. AQ is a judgement call.

Your hand selection tells me that you better be able to pin down where you stand on the flop and where others stand as well. Or you will have wild swings - because, when the cards fall for you it'll be great. You'll get callers. But when they don't - EVEN IF YOU FOLD RIGHT AWAY which is unlikely - then you're putting way too much money in the pot preflop. Which probably causes you to FEEL like you're falling behind after a while when things don't go your way and you LOOSEN UP and get a little tilty to try to "get back on pace" or "back on track" or "catch up" or "get back to even at least before you stop playing", etc. etc.

If you don't have the right mentality for high variance poker then you need to examine how much money you are putting into pots. If you like your hand selection and method of play then you'll see alot of variance. When you are ON it will be GREAT!!! When you are OFF it's going to get ugly. (The difference between ON and OFF is going to be what flops and whether it hits other people harder than you.)

That's my view. When it goes south for you what normally happens? Where do you have the most exposure and in what type of hands do you lose the biggest chunk of chips?

[aokrongly]

What is your VPIP, 30%+? I follow close to what AOK suggests in his 19 starting hands. Dont play AT [sometimes raise ATs in LP] and Limp QJ, KJ, KQ [usually ditch limping hands in EP] and raise AQ+ 99+ and 55+ when folded to in LP. For calling the raises Ill call with any pocket pair for a raise of less than 4-5xBB if they can pay me off for a set and fold AQ to a raise, any of my limping hands I also fold. Im not limping with anything less than AJs and certainly not calling a raise with those hands, I dont thinking calling minraises looking for a flush is profitable, but I could be wrong there. When folded to in LP I will rasie around A7s+ and maybe KTs+ if the players behind me are tight. Suited connectors I dont play much, and almost never limp them. When folded or after 1 limper in LP I will raise 98s+.

This is a very general guideline for how I play, I put a lot more emphasis on position than AOK does in the 19 starting hands, but he obviously assumes we will adapt based on our position as we grow as a player. Personally I feel like you are playing way too many hands from all of your positions and should tighten your starting requirements a little. The other thing is you should not be so eager to call a raise with any hand you would raise with simply because some of those are going to be dominated by your opponents raising range.

What types of tables are you at and how is this working out for you?

[Les_Worm]

Which hands do you raise with or fold with? It all depends on what you are setting out to do. Are you trying to make money? Are you just using poker as entertainment? Are you wanting to actually play poker or are you just more interested in playing cards? If you want to play cards then start as many tables as you are able to then play AA, KK, QQ and AK and limp all smaller pairs for sets; fold everything else. You won't be having fun and you won't be playing poker but you'll make money. If you want to play poker you need to understand that poker cannot be played with "rules" or "restrictions". You must understand general underlying theory and concepts behind the plays that you make. Often times I'm raising a wide range of hands when its folded to me and I'll call raises with hands I "shouldn't" in position but this is because I have strength in my post flop game and my ability to read betting patterns. There is a difference between being a card player and a poker player. Which do you want to be?

[aokrongly]

He actually hit one of the best flops imaginable with A8.

He really hit one of the worst hands imaginable, because hitting the 8 on the flop as top pair kept him a hand he really shouldnt have been in to start with. And he didnt bet enough to push the others away from their hands. If that can be done at this level.

Thank you! What soo few players see is the money they lose from staying in hands that they never really had a chance with. This one turned out weird. But the reason I don't advocate say A9s is because players literally burn money when they half-hit the flop. That's why I call it an intermediate play, not a beginner play. It's the psychology of the thing that costs people money, not the mathematical odds of it. They hit half the flop and get overly involved in the hand, where an experienced player will check/fold TP crappy kicker when they were in the hand for the straight draw.

This is the big blind spot people don't see in their game. THE #1 LEAK. And that's why they call it a leak. You think you played OK and then say "where's my money?

[cardsman1992]

What that list tells me is that you need to have a good preflop game when you raise preflop, because you're putting alot of money into the pot preflop with alot of hands. Alot of this depends on table dynamics. If the average % of players seeing the flop is less than 40% then your agressions should pay off. If it's 50% or more then you're going to have to catch cards to keep from losing your ass. So you need to watch that. Also, watch the average pot. If it's less than 15x the BB then it shows a willingness for players to fold postflop (i.e. postflop tightness). If, however it's more than 20x then it shows that you're going to have to win with cards and not just agression.

You're calling way too many unpaired hands into raised pots, IMO. It's one thing to be agressive with a wide range of cards, but what value is there in calling KJ with a raise in front, or AJ or AT. AQ is a judgement call.

Your hand selection tells me that you better be able to pin down where you stand on the flop and where others stand as well. Or you will have wild swings - because, when the cards fall for you it'll be great. You'll get callers. But when they don't - EVEN IF YOU FOLD RIGHT AWAY which is unlikely - then you're putting way too much money in the pot preflop. Which probably causes you to FEEL like you're falling behind after a while when things don't go your way and you LOOSEN UP and get a little tilty to try to "get back on pace" or "back on track" or "catch up" or "get back to even at least before you stop playing", etc. etc.

If you don't have the right mentality for high variance poker then you need to examine how much money you are putting into pots. If you like your hand selection and method of play then you'll see alot of variance. When you are ON it will be GREAT!!! When you are OFF it's going to get ugly. (The difference between ON and OFF is going to be what flops and whether it hits other people harder than you.)

That's my view. When it goes south for you what normally happens? Where do you have the most exposure and in what type of hands do you lose the biggest chunk of chips?

Yeah, admittedly, I could tighten up a little. My VP$IP floats between 23-25%. Playing 19 hand strategy would cut that approx in half. My problems do come postflop when I feel like I have committed money to the pot, and I occasionally pay too much to draw thinking I will get paid if I hit. I really should stop playing KJ, KQ in raised pots, and stop playing the PP to raises….I need to look at AT in Pokertracker to see what it is doing for me.

When it goes south for me, I lose 2 pair to sets ( I have a hard time detecting sets for some reason), 2 pair to straights. I do get outkicked in large pots at times, or I lose TPTK or to a flukey 2 pair on a raggy board when someone stays in with 68 suited. I pay off a little too much with second best hands. Then, you have me pegged, aokrongly, I start to pressure myself to do too much and it snowballs. Tightening up both preflop and postflop should help that. My c-bets commit me too much. Renton told me that, too. I am seeing that wisdom more and more. But as you said, when it runs good, it runs really good!!! I need to temper the swings a little more. I can handle a little swing, but not a roller coaster.

Once again, all you guys have been helpful…..

[andy-akb]

What types of tables are you at and how is this working out for you?

I play the $10NL at Stars [waiting until my BR gets to $500 to go to $25nl currently at $460] where Id say the average table VPIP is around 40% and the players are usually fairly loose passive with not a lot of raising. This strategy has worked well for me and over the past 10k hands Ive been hovering around 15ptbb/100 4-tabling. Its a small sample size, so while Im not confident of my exact winrate, I am confident that I am a winning player and have been seeing a lot of improvement in my play.

[aokrongly]

What that list tells me is that you need to have a good preflop game when you raise preflop, because you're putting alot of money into the pot preflop with alot of hands. Alot of this depends on table dynamics. If the average % of players seeing the flop is less than 40% then your agressions should pay off. If it's 50% or more then you're going to have to catch cards to keep from losing your ass. So you need to watch that. Also, watch the average pot. If it's less than 15x the BB then it shows a willingness for players to fold postflop (i.e. postflop tightness). If, however it's more than 20x then it shows that you're going to have to win with cards and not just agression.

You're calling way too many unpaired hands into raised pots, IMO. It's one thing to be agressive with a wide range of cards, but what value is there in calling KJ with a raise in front, or AJ or AT. AQ is a judgement call.

Your hand selection tells me that you better be able to pin down where you stand on the flop and where others stand as well. Or you will have wild swings - because, when the cards fall for you it'll be great. You'll get callers. But when they don't - EVEN IF YOU FOLD RIGHT AWAY which is unlikely - then you're putting way too much money in the pot preflop. Which probably causes you to FEEL like you're falling behind after a while when things don't go your way and you LOOSEN UP and get a little tilty to try to "get back on pace" or "back on track" or "catch up" or "get back to even at least before you stop playing", etc. etc.

If you don't have the right mentality for high variance poker then you need to examine how much money you are putting into pots. If you like your hand selection and method of play then you'll see alot of variance. When you are ON it will be GREAT!!! When you are OFF it's going to get ugly. (The difference between ON and OFF is going to be what flops and whether it hits other people harder than you.)

That's my view. When it goes south for you what normally happens? Where do you have the most exposure and in what type of hands do you lose the biggest chunk of chips?

Yeah, admittedly, I could tighten up a little. My VP$IP floats between 23-25%. Playing 19 hand strategy would cut that approx in half. My problems do come postflop when I feel like I have committed money to the pot, and I occasionally pay too much to draw thinking I will get paid if I hit. I really should stop playing KJ, KQ in raised pots, and stop playing the PP to raises….I need to look at AT in Pokertracker to see what it is doing for me.

When it goes south for me, I lose 2 pair to sets ( I have a hard time detecting sets for some reason), 2 pair to straights. I do get outkicked in large pots at times, or I lose TPTK or to a flukey 2 pair on a raggy board when someone stays in with 68 suited. I pay off a little too much with second best hands. Then, you have me pegged, aokrongly, I start to pressure myself to do too much and it snowballs. Tightening up both preflop and postflop should help that. My c-bets commit me too much. Renton told me that, too. I am seeing that wisdom more and more. But as you said, when it runs good, it runs really good!!! I need to temper the swings a little more. I can handle a little swing, but not a roller coaster.

Once again, all you guys have been helpful…..

I'm not saying you have to go 19 hand or anything. I fyou pay too much for draws and that's a leak. then STop Doing It. Remember the belief vs think thing. Hre's the belief - IF YOU ONLY PLAY DRAW FOR 25% OF THE POT OR LESS THEN YOU WILL KEEP TWICE AS MUCH OF YOUR WINNINGS EVERY SESSION. YOU CAN PLAY ANY OPEN DRAW FOR 25% OR LESS OF THE POT BUT YOU MUST FOLD ALL OTHERS. Or you must make a sign that sticks to your monitor. The sign says FISH CROSSING. Make it pretty with color and pictures and stuff. Anytime you break the 25% rule you have to stick it to the monitor for the next 15 minutes WHETHER YOU WIN THE HAND OR NOT.

Now, about calling raised pots with KJ and JQ, yea! You should stop doing that. There's no value in it. AT is a judgement call. It's probably a wash over the long term - as long as you don't overpay when you have 2nd best kicker. that's the one skill you need to find - knowing when you're beat and having the balls to fold.

[aokrongly]

What types of tables are you at and how is this working out for you?

I play the $10NL at Stars [waiting until my BR gets to $500 to go to $25nl currently at $460] where Id say the average table VPIP is around 40% and the players are usually fairly loose passive with not a lot of raising. This strategy has worked well for me and over the past 10k hands Ive been hovering around 15ptbb/100 4-tabling. Its a small sample size, so while Im not confident of my exact winrate, I am confident that I am a winning player and have been seeing a lot of improvement in my play.

you're right on track, actually doing a tad better than average for 19 hand. that says you're keeping your mistakes to a minimum.

[cardsman1992]

Fish Crossing...that rules LOL

Seriously, thanks...that is a good idea!!

[aokrongly]

I've had 2 straight flushes and 1 royal flush in the last 24 hours. I've only had 1 other straight flush in my life. Poker is crazy. It's hard to make money with them. I would rather have a hidden set against ak that pairs up anyday.

[gabe]

WITH TPTK OR AN OVERPAIR (EVEN ACES), Bet HALF TO 2/3 THE POT throughout the hand. IF YOU ARE RAISED (EVEN MIN. RAISED) YOU ARE BEAT.

i disagree with this and i dont even play low stakes anymore. beginners make alot of money by owning people with overpairs and to a lesser extend, tptk. folding a nice overpair to a minraise in small stakes NL is a crime.

[Xo_Sirk_oX]

beginners make alot of money by owning people with overpairs and to a lesser extend, tptk

This is true, BUT you have SO many Chasers it is almost not worth it.

Example
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (7 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

SB ($2.17)
Xo_Sirk_oX ($1.95)
UTG ($1.90)
MP1 ($0.88)
MP2 ($1.33)
CO ($0.85)
Button ($3.57)

Preflop: Xo_Sirk_oX is BB with J, 3.
UTG calls $0.02, MP1 calls $0.02, MP2 calls $0.02, CO calls $0.02, 1 fold, SB completes, Xo_Sirk_oX checks.

Flop: ($0.12) 9, 3, 3 (6 players)
SB checks, Xo_Sirk_oX bets $0.04, UTG folds, MP1 folds, MP2 calls $0.04, CO folds, SB folds.

Turn: ($0.20) 8 (2 players)
Xo_Sirk_oX bets $0.72, MP2 calls $0.72.

River: ($1.64) A (2 players)
Xo_Sirk_oX bets $0.5, MP2 raises to $0.55, Xo_Sirk_oX calls $0.05.

Final Pot: $2.74

Results below:
Xo_Sirk_oX has Jh 3d (three of a kind, threes).
MP2 has 2c Kc (flush, ace high).
Outcome: MP2 wins $2.74.

[Renton]

WITH TPTK OR AN OVERPAIR (EVEN ACES), Bet HALF TO 2/3 THE POT throughout the hand. IF YOU ARE RAISED (EVEN MIN. RAISED) YOU ARE BEAT.

i disagree with this and i dont even play low stakes anymore. beginners make alot of money by owning people with overpairs and to a lesser extend, tptk. folding a nice overpair to a minraise in small stakes NL is a crime.

QFT. If you use a HUD and pokertracker, and villain doesn't have the stats of a nit, you can stack off with Overpairs (and even TPTK occasionally) at the low stakes (50nl/25nl) all the time. You can't always rely on sets and pat hands.

[yorib]

As for pre-flop strategy, I'll play the "Aok 19" + Axs (the same as a low pp, I either hit it hard, or get out of the hand) - KJ/QJ (sometimes) + 8Ts+ TJs. I've done fairly well so far with that to date (started with $100 from instantbankroll.com and turned it into $250 by 4 tabling at $5NL on partypoker.) I kind of vary things up with PFR vs. calling, sometimes raising anything (that I would play) 3xBB, other times varying it and limping more. I don't think I even have 10K hands under my belt (haven't sprung for pokertracker yet), so I can't determine how the Axs and high suited connecters are playing.

I'm beginning to think that ultimately I'll need to go in to one of two directions: Raise everything the exact same amount, or raise everything a random amount (maybe roll a 6 sided die). Recently I've noticed that by raising more pre-flop I'm able to take down more hands with a solid continuation bet. (Like betting the pot with TT even if a K hits).

An unaddressed question is: What are your thoughts when someone raises an "absurd" amount. Say 20xBB pre-flop (like .80 in $5NL) or makes a 3x pot bet on the river where there's been no action before?

My first thought is, "Why would they make that bet unless they wanted to get called?" My second thought is, "If they wanted to get called, why wouldn't they bet a more resonable amount?"

Curiously,

-yorib

[aokrongly]

When someone bets an absurd amount preflop I just fold and hope anyone else without aa or kk does the same. i honestly don't care what he has. if he does it consistently he'll be destacked quickly.

on teh 2nd question. it depends on what i have. I'll give a big bettor respect unless i was trapping him anyway. I'll do the same though - slow roll a nut hand and then make a rediculous bet. If the pot is small I'll bet a ton with the nuts on the river hoping someone looks me up.

[Vrax]

Jackvance wrote:

Because it's showing weakness. If you raised all the previous streets, you have basically been saying "I have a good hand" all the time. The other guys don't know what you have. But if you suddenly check.. they might think "hm, less confidence in his hand, maybe he doesn't have anything that strong afterall".

I'd check behind that trips.

Showing weakness by checking behind can be done on flop and turn, sometimes I do it against habitual bluffers or to control the pot size with light hand. On river you just flip over your hand and hope for the best.

[salsa4ever]

WITH TPTK OR AN OVERPAIR (EVEN ACES), Bet HALF TO 2/3 THE POT throughout the hand. IF YOU ARE RAISED (EVEN MIN. RAISED) YOU ARE BEAT.

i disagree with this and i dont even play low stakes anymore. beginners make alot of money by owning people with overpairs and to a lesser extend, tptk. folding a nice overpair to a minraise in small stakes NL is a crime.

I concur with gabe.

What makes it so hard is that sometimes players have TPNK and sometimes they have TPTK to your overpair.

If you're playing against me you're going to be folding a lot of hands. Especially in position I'm raising cont bets, I raise them with draws, I raise with 2nd pair, I raise it with air. Think about what I might have when calling a raise. Probably a pocket pair or SC in position. If I call with JJ or 78s and the flop comes K96 or As10s2d and you lead 50%-60% then I am raising your bet about 2.5 times

You've really got to distinguish between a flop raise, a turn raise and a river raise. I have run into so many complete bluffs; I had to call down yesterday with AT top pair when my opponent was calling until the river when he pushed all in to my blocking bet.

If I had to make a "rule" it would be limited to the following: if your opponent raises or check raises on the turn you can be pretty confident about dumping your TPTK

[aokrongly]

what buyin are you at?

[salsa4ever]

what buyin are you at?

I play NL200

But I have as recently as last week been murdering the 50NL on empire clearing the 1400 hand bonus.

I stand by my original assessment that to advise players fold TPTK to a raise generally is really quite wrong (although I do like what you have to say about your opponent's bets)

I believe a much more accurate way to play is that warning bells should sound in your head if you have TPTK and your opponent raises. Don't think "aha time to cash in". If there's one thing to stress it's that big pots aren't won with TPTK. A much better approach is to consider what I consider the salient factors and the main ones are:

P: Position
A: Aggression
S: Stacks
S: Street (of raise)
P: Pre flop action
O: Other live players
R: Reraises / Repeated strength
T: Texture (of flop)

Position of the raiser. Be wary of a raise by a player in position on a board with straight/flush draws. Could be a semi-bluff. If you're out of position you want to escalate the pot and if you're in position you can be more comfortable just calling and seeing.

Aggression. How aggressive is the raiser? Does he raises a lot? Is he one to raise a lot of marginal hands to see where he's at?

Stack Sizes. Short stack (started with only 40BB or costs only 25BB to just go all in) dictates a call

What (S)treet the raise? Turn raises to me are especially strong. Yes I sometimes make them with air, but not all that often.

Pre flop action: who was the pre flop aggressor? Did I raise and get called, did I call a raise, did I call a reraise, did I reraise? If you lead into a PFR and he raises, well he was kind of expected to so you can't really read too much into the raise.

Other live players. Especially if they have been raising or don't show much intention to fold. Easy situation to fold TPTK

Reraises: they are strong. Repeated and consistent agression is also a sign of strength. If you call a flop bet with just overcards and then you hit an A and bet it and your opponent still goes ballistic, then you're in trouble.

Texture of the flop. You're always afraid of trips. But how likely is a 2 pair? How likely is a made hand? A K73 flop is pretty unlikely to yield a 2 pair that beats you but AK on a KQ10 flop is pretty dangerous.

Playing TPTK to a raise is hard. And you'll get de-stacked your fair share. Hopefully with the guidelines it's possible to stack TPNK or drive off a bluff to win more money than when you lose your stack. And it is still true that you don't want to lose a 100BB pot with just TPTK.

[Irisheyes]

WITH TPTK OR AN OVERPAIR (EVEN ACES), Bet HALF TO 2/3 THE POT throughout the hand. IF YOU ARE RAISED (EVEN MIN. RAISED) YOU ARE BEAT.

i disagree with this and i dont even play low stakes anymore. beginners make alot of money by owning people with overpairs and to a lesser extend, tptk. folding a nice overpair to a minraise in small stakes NL is a crime.

I concur with gabe.

Thirded.

Noobs overvalue TP and overpairs (under your overpair) too much to justify being this weak tight.

[biondino]

At £25NL (which is, both fiscally and in terms of ability, somewhere between $25NL and $50NL), I would say that someone calling your TPTK bet on the flop and then min-raising (or more) on the turn is a sign of two pair or better about 75% of the time, and without a read, I will usually fold, depending on pre-flop betting, table texture, outs etc.

At $25, it's more like a toss-up. The thing about noobs is they either a) only raise with strong hands or b) raise far too often, and if you know they're not type b), then you have to wonder what they could have and be prepared to lay it down.

[aokrongly]

I like the passport thing. And I agree from a balance standpoint. I do think, however, that NL10-50 is fishy in 2 ways. One is that they overvalue their hand, but the other is that they are passive and weak. Weak players only raise when they hit a hand hard.

I do agree with you. I'll have to put it in the brain bucket and let it simmer. What percentage of the time is a weak player raising because they have a monster and what percentage is a fish overvaluing tptk and raising a 1/2 pot bet? (these are rhetorical unless you know the answers) And what is the net impact of staying in the hand? AND if you're going to stay in the hand - let's say you have ak with a A high flop, you bet 1/2 the pot, he min raises you. At this point you have a choice - go weak and call or make a move. What's your preference. This assumes early position, because a check/raise by him is a whole nother thing - weak players don't check/raise top pair. (period) That's either a full on bluff or a trap. So, when you bet 1/2 with AK and TP, and get min raised what's thte move? Call and bet into him again on the turn is what I would do. If he raises again, you're dead for sure. The question here is how much of a raise do you call. The min raise is a small mistake to call if you're wrong. the big overraise?? When a weak player makes a big move do you call that?

Again, I'm trying to balance teachability and playability for a new player, so I can't have too complicated a system. It is a balancing act, though.

[salsa4ever]

we're making an important assumption here: the raiser is weak.

because if the raiser is not weak then the semi-bluff free-card raise is something to watch out for.

I rather like your line. You're pretty much either ahead or behind with TPTK or KK/AA overpair. Call now, and bet the turn so as to avoid escalating the pot too much.

With no draws, and if the pot is small (like 7BB pre flop, then bet 4BB then minraise, if I call that is 23BB) then I would consider calling and going weak. You lose less against stuff that beats you, and if he's overvaluing TPTK you let him bet. If he checks behind on the turn and the river doesn't come a card that could have made a flopped OESD then I would value bet. Both lines are plausible

[aokrongly]

Early position I would call the minraise and then bet 1/2 pot into him Again on the turn to see what he does. If he raises me again then I'm done with the hand. He might have been cold bluffing, at which point he'll give up the hand. Finally he might just call, but at least I'm the one setting the pace for the betting at 1/2 the pot instead of having him bet 3/4 to 1x pot into me. I'm getting the most information at the cheapest rate.

However, we are agreed totally - I'm sure - that TPTK or even an overpair is not something you want to get overly committed to. That's how beginners get destacked over and over and over again. Especially the overpair. Beginners overcommit to the pocket overpair.

AA raised preflop by you. Flop is 886, you bet half the pot, they raise you. turn is junk. You bet all in, they call with an 8. Happens all the time. Or, you bet again and they push and you call. Same stupid ending to the same obvious story. That's what i'm talking about when i say don't overvalue even an over pocket pair.

[aokrongly]

As I watched my play since this post I have found myself calling a couple raises with an overpair and being right. However, in all instances where I was right I was massaging the pot with LESS than half the pot sized bets. I did this because I was heads up on the flop. In this situation, especially in early position, I try really hard to rep AK with this hand after teh flop. I'm hoping the guy has a pocket pair (under mine) and starts to feel good about it, so I can continue getting money into the pot through the river.

However, when I'm doing this it is Incredibly Based On "Feel", i.e. experience over hundreds of thousands of hands. And it's unnecessary. I could just bet over half the pot and he'll probably call. The very few times it is wrong to fold here (the exceptions) can't be taught to beginners and have more a negative impact if misplayed than the positive impact of the general rule.

Whew... That's a really crappy way of saying "your right" especially since it ended by saying "i'm right".

Anyway, I still see your point. But for training purposes I'm sticking to the rule.

[Irisheyes]

I don't think I've used a less then 1/2 pot bet since I left 10NL 90,000 hands ago.

I think in general alot of your bet sizes need to be bigger. Standard should be flop: 2/3 - full, turn: 1/2 - 2/3 and then river whatever. I don't see why you would ever want to use a less then 1/2 pot bet, especially at Fortune, you can massage the pots at 200NL with 2/3 pot bets because of all the calling stations, while getting more value from your hand.

[drtofu66]

However, when I'm doing this it is Incredibly Based On "Feel", i.e. experience over hundreds of thousands of hands. And it's unnecessary. I could just bet over half the pot and he'll probably call. The very few times it is wrong to fold here (the exceptions) can't be taught to beginners and have more a negative impact if misplayed than the positive impact of the general rule.

Anyway, I still see your point. But for training purposes I'm sticking to the rule.

I just wanted to say that this thread has helped me a LOT as someone transitioning from limit to NL. The 19 starting hands was a good starting point and counterplay would bag me some big pots if someone else opened the betting and I could hide behind their bets, but I'd still have good sessions marred by bad calls and overaggression/stubbornness with top pair, two pair, trips/sets when I was reraised. Additionally, I'm sure my amateurish betting was costing me value-- overbetting my made hands, underbetting great but vulnerable hands and letting drawers in too cheap and getting beat on the turn/river.

Though some may regard this betting style as overly tight, it's actually opened my game up quite a bit (though I was probably weak-tight before because I didn't have a good plan) and reduced the number of times my stack has gotten decimated with weak hands while I get more comfortable with this game and develop a style that works for me. It's given me the chance to steal some pots in position without paying too much and I find that I'm now getting decent value from my good hands.

So thanks AOK and FTR community!

[jyms]

Sorry to mess up your thread early, but i was more or less trying to get across the fact that they call with anything to chase a hand. My mistake was that I had stacked this blackjohn and others on other tables and on other nights. He will chase any bets to get his flush and calls unless his hand is made. These guys were calling anything to chase. I had decided to forgo the 19 hands a little and try to hit some flops since I could get out easily and make it up later. I had added Ax and SC to the list for a l;ittle while since I was only playing 2 tabels ATM. I should have been more clear. I normally play 19 hands on 4 tables fairly religiously since I get into the trouble you guys are describing. These guys never raise unless they hit the magic.

You make your money from bad players calling when they shouldn't.

This part I knew.

But when they raise you that means they hit something magic (either on that card or earlier and they were hiding behind your big bets). The magic part of half bet pots (even with draws, or Especiallywith draws) with hands like tptk, 2 pair and an overpair is that they prompt weaker hands to call and stronger hands to raise. If you bet less then you invite a bluff raise or speculative raise, if you bet the pot or more then monster hands can hide behind your bet.

Where was this when I was getting stacked by guys that I was pot betting to get them off a hand. Never, ever thought of hiding behind. Always watched for the reraise. This could be my biggest leak, If we can classify it as that.

[notoriousuli]

Great thread, very illuminating.

I took AOK's suggestion and went back and looked at all the hands I played pre-flop in a SNG I played yesterday. I thought I had been playing tight-aggressive. Instead, I played way, way too loose and just got lucky a lot. I called in late position or the blinds with marginal hands and had to fold on the flop. I raised with a lot of junk. I played lots of ragged Aces, and even worse, K-x.

The only thing going for me is that my opponents were playing fairly tight-passive, so some of my big raises induced big folds - when a call or re-raise would have put me in some really difficult situations. Also, I did manage to lay down some low pocket pairs that I would have got killed on had I played them.

In fact, out of the 50 hands I participated in, only 20 were one of AOK's suggested 19 starting NL hands! Of those 20 hands, four times I held pocket Queens.

Where's my corset? Time to tighten up!!!

[aokrongly]

...

[bpurvis2]

Excellent post play the phycological part of the game on them the lower the bet amount the more likely your ahaed of them the more there willing to commit the chances are there way ahead of you.

[Galapogos]

Like this??

PokerStars Game #4578762826: Hold'em No Limit ($0.01/$0.02) - 2006/04/09 -
23:39:50 (ET)
Table 'Kalchas III' 9-max Seat #9 is the button
Seat 1: BLACKJOHN ($3.56 in chips)
Seat 3: Philthos ($1.98 in chips)
Seat 4: Studmuffino ($2.62 in chips)
Seat 5: trainer_jyms ($2.83 in chips)
Seat 6: hongkongfewy ($4.79 in chips)
Seat 7: sodapoppa ($2.18 in chips)
Seat 8: bltmsu ($7.91 in chips)
Seat 9: farmerkel ($0.63 in chips)
BLACKJOHN: posts small blind $0.01
Philthos: posts big blind $0.02
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to trainer_jyms [Ac 8d]
Studmuffino: folds
trainer_jyms: calls $0.02
Lil Auggie leaves the table
hongkongfewy: raises $0.04 to $0.06
sodapoppa: folds
bltmsu: folds
farmerkel: calls $0.06
BLACKJOHN: calls $0.05
Philthos: calls $0.04
trainer_jyms: calls $0.04
*** FLOP *** [4d 3c 8c]
BLACKJOHN: checks
Philthos: checks
trainer_jyms: bets $0.10
smokingjoe68 joins the table at seat #2
hongkongfewy: calls $0.10
farmerkel: calls $0.10
BLACKJOHN: calls $0.10
Philthos: calls $0.10
*** TURN *** [4d 3c 8c] [8h]
BLACKJOHN: checks
Philthos: checks
trainer_jyms: bets $0.10
hongkongfewy: calls $0.10
farmerkel: calls $0.10
BLACKJOHN: calls $0.10
Philthos: calls $0.10
*** RIVER *** [4d 3c 8c 8h] [7c]
BLACKJOHN: checks
Philthos: checks
trainer_jyms: bets $0.30
hongkongfewy: folds
farmerkel: folds
BLACKJOHN: calls $0.30
Philthos: folds
*** SHOW DOWN ***
trainer_jyms: shows [Ac 8d] (three of a kind, Eights)
BLACKJOHN: shows [2c Qc] (a flush, Queen high)
BLACKJOHN collected $1.85 from pot

You suck n00b.