What I've learned after 5,000 hands

[dzeanah]

I'm writing this for two reasons:

1. To solidify my thinking a bit
2. To save someone else who's new to NL cash play a mistake or two. Always better to learn from someone else's mistakes, though other people's experiences are never as strong as something learned directly.

I'm not Mister Guru Poker Guy or anything; I'm just a dude who's learned not to be a total donk all the time over the last couple of weeks. What follows is a list of some of the things I've learned that make me a bit less donk-like.

• Play Money practice isn't. Playing for real money in ring games is different than playing for pretend. Losing 10,000 play money chips over some statistical aberration that paid off for the other guy hurts in a very different way than losing a real buy-in. A buy-in that came out of your bank account, or could have gone into your bank account, or that represented 3 hours of grinding work. It also leads to different play in the games themselves.
• Top Pair/Top Kicker sucks. Top 2 pairs (very often) suck.Your AK hit an AK6 on the flop - great. If you think you've got the best hand and someone else matched their 66 holding, then you're about to lose your stack. That's poker -- accept the possibility and develop the discipline to lay down a hand when you know you're beat -- more often than not, you're right.
• Overpairs suck. See above. I played a hand the other day where I was dealt QQ -- the pre-flop betting convinced me he had a bigger pair, but I called to take a look at the flop. The flop came Qxx and I took his stack -- this happens. If you've got AA and someone tells you you're beat by his betting, unless you've got a specific reason that this guy is bluffing, lay it down. Yeah, sometimes he might giggle, flash unsuited crap, and get away with it, but for me this has been a +EV move when I've followed this advice.
• Trust your reads. About 20 minutes after that last QQ hand, I was dealt QQ on another table and suspected the guy had aces. I called telling myself I'd fold if I didn't hit my set. The flop came AQx, I convinced myself there was a good chance he had been raising with AK or KK, called his all-in, and lost my stack with queens-full to his aces-full. I should have trusted my read.
• Trust your reads part two. Same day as above, I had AA on the button, raised strong, and the flop came 7x7. I raised post-flop, got reraised, made a comment about how I hated AA, and was shown 77 after I folded. The guy flopped four of a kind and my willingness to fold a big pair saved me a bit more than a buy-in.
• Fold when you're beat. It doesn't matter how great your hand is -- if it's second best, then it's just gonna cost more money if you drag it out rather than folding when you know you're beaten. Learn from my AAA vs QQQ example -- flopping a big set is the opposite of great if you've got the #2 hand.
• Manage your bankroll. There's plenty of advice here, but it can be summed up like this. You will have losing streaks, and if your bankroll isn't big enough (or you're playing stakes you're not funded for) then you will go bust eventually. If you manage your bankroll correctly you can reduce this risk to something like a 2% chance over your lifetime statistically, and going bust sucks. Be less greedy, and play with your head.
• Implied odds matter, so start thinking about them.The example earlier is a good one, but here's another. My K3 in the BB hit a flop of KKx. UTG raised, button called, I called. Turn was the same, as was the river until the button reraised enough to put UTG and I all-in. It was out of nowhere, I had no read on the guy, the board wasn't at all frightening, and I didn't think he'd flopped a set (and he didn't have the pot odds to be calling along the whole time). Turns out his 96 offsuit made a well-hidden straight, and I bit. I'd call it bad play on his part, except he got 2 stacks as payback for his long-shot there. When you take away a guy's odds to draw to his hand, and he calls anyway and eventually hits his hand, DON'T PAY HIM OFF! If you know he'll play suited-anything, the flop brings two diamonds, and he keeps calling pot-sized bets until the river brings a third diamond and he bets big, then fold. Yeah, he could be bluffing, but odds are this time you're beat. Long-term he's making a money-losing mistake here, unless you pay him off that few % of the time he hits. You're trying to take money from him, not the other way around.
• If you're just starting out, play tight. Follow something like AOKrongly's 19 hands strategy that's stickied here. It's not the most profitable way to play, but it'll let you learn for the minimum price possible. Playing "real" poker with a larger variety of holdings is a more profitable way to play, but it's also a great way to go broke unless you've developed the underlying skillset required to do so properly. Playing tight means you've got easier post-flop decisions; playing looser means you'll be in a number of hands with the second- or third-best hand, and knowing whether someone will fold to a bet, having good reads, knowing when you really aren't in a profitable situation, and all the rest are a vital part of that game. Those can be expensive lessons -- tighter is less expensive in the short run.
• If you're not playing your best, do something else. The next hand is the next one you play -- if you're distracted, then do something else.
• If you're playing great, even if you're losing, then keep playing. Poker's a long-term game, and your goal is to stack up a huge pile of correct decisions that will make you money in the long term. If you're on top of your game and bad beats keep coming, then comtinue the good play as long as you're not tilting. This assumes, of course, that it actually is bad beats you're seeing, and not bad play.
• You're not all that good. You see that guy across the table from you that you think is so predictable? You're better than him, and if you wait for the right situation you can take his stack. See that other guy who's always playing and raising with random crap but only shows a hand that wins big? He's better than you, and you might want to avoid big pots with him unless you've got the nuts or damn close. If he's limping kings and re-re-raising with 96 offsuit, every one of his pots gets huge even if he's only got middle pair, he's consistently winning, and your head is spinning trying to figure out why, then you probably don't want to tangle with him. He's probably got a solid read on you and everyone else at the table, and he's setting up to take your stack. At the very least you'll have no confidence your (winning) hand is any good and you'll get bluffed quite a bit.

That's all I've got off the top of my head. Hope it helps someone.

[Hartlin]

I don't agree with one of these things

"Trust your reads. About 20 minutes after that last QQ hand, I was dealt QQ on another table and suspected the guy had aces. I called telling myself I'd fold if I didn't hit my set. The flop came AQx, I convinced myself there was a good chance he had been raising with AK or KK, called his all-in, and lost my stack with queens-full to his aces-full. I should have trusted my read. "

I really don't see HOW you can put someone on a direct hand like that, sure you could possibly say KK+, but it just isn't possible to be able to put someone on an exact hand preflop... I also don't agree with you wanting to fold postflop if you didn't hit a set. If the flop is all undercards, are you going to fold? Doubt it, its -EV to do if you do.

I don't agree with you saying Top pair top kicker "sucks". Top pair top kicker is a GOOD hand to have, as long as you play it properly, trusting reads here does help, but you have to be putting your opps on ranges throughout the hand (preflop, flop, turn, river). Ranges are something like PP 66+, A10+, stuff like this, not just AJ for sure, he must have AJ! I just know it! Top pair top kicker is strong as long as its played well.

I completely disagree with you saying two pair sucks very often.. bottom 2 pair, sure, be cautious but top two pair (AK on AK6 board for example) can't be played as if you assume he has a set every single time, you just won't maximize profit this way. Two pair is very rarely not golden (depending on the board).

Everything is pretty agreeable, just make sure you don't risk more than 5-10% of your BR per day, this will keep you away from busting your roll. Take breaks if you're on a bad streak, continuing to play won't make the streak go away, you'll simply throw away money.

By the way, this reply wasn't made to bash you dzeanah, it was a little follow up stuff that I added to tell new players and just a few comments about your thoughts.

[dzeanah]

I really don't see HOW you can put someone on a direct hand like that, sure you could possibly say KK+, but it just isn't possible to be able to put someone on an exact hand preflop... I also don't agree with you wanting to fold postflop if you didn't hit a set. If the flop is all undercards, are you going to fold? Doubt it, its -EV to do if you do.

I don't know what to say here -- I'm finding that sometimes I'm almost certain from betting pattern that I know what I'm up against. I don't think it's magical, I think it's something you pick up on after a while -- some players won't reraise with anything but AA (or sometimes KK) for instance, and others like to raise 4-6BB with JJ-QQ, where everything else is a standard raise.

Here's the hand in question: I made the read, I played accordingly, and was right. It happens -- when it happens, IMHO, you should trust it.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

saw flop|saw showdown

UTG ($9.20)
MP ($9.95)
Hero ($14.85)
Button ($3.55)
SB ($16.50)
BB ($3.15)

Preflop: Hero is CO with Q, Q.
2 folds, Hero raises to $0.3, 2 folds, BB raises to $0.5, Hero calls $0.20.

Flop: ($1.05) T, 4, Q (2 players)
BB bets $0.3, Hero raises to $1, BB calls $0.70.

Turn: ($3.05) 7 (2 players)
BB bets $0.4, Hero raises to $1.65, BB calls $1.25 (All-In).

River: ($6.35) T (2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: $6.35

Results in white below:
BB has Ad As (two pair, aces and tens).
Hero has Qc Qh (full house, queens full of tens).
Outcome: Hero wins $6.35.

Here's the second one I mentioned -- it turns out it was AAA vs QQQ instead of full houses. Now, it might help to mention that I've played > 100 hands against this guy (and even know his real name ), and his V$PiP is something like 14%. I had no doubt be had aces, but I didn't think my read was good enough to trust so I crossed my fingers and went ahead and pushed. In hindsight I didn't lose that much, but it sure felt like a whole stack.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (8 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

saw flop|saw showdown

Hero ($10.95)
Button ($9.85)
SB ($5.95)
BB ($5.40)
UTG ($3.50)
UTG+1 ($7.80)
MP1 ($2.70)
MP2 ($9.80)

Preflop: Hero is CO with Q, Q.
UTG raises to $0.2, 1 fold, MP1 calls $0.20, MP2 raises to $0.5, Hero calls $0.50, 2 folds, BB calls $0.40, UTG calls $0.30, MP1 raises to $0.8, MP2 calls $0.30, Hero calls $0.30, BB calls $0.30, UTG calls $0.30.

Flop: ($4.05) Q, A, 2 (5 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, MP1 bets $0.2, MP2 calls $0.20, Hero raises to $2.1, BB folds, UTG folds, MP1 calls $1.70 (All-In), MP2 folds.

Turn: ($8.25) T (2 players, 1 all-in)

River: ($8.25) 6 (2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: $8.25

Results in white below:
MP1 has Ah Ad (three of a kind, aces).
Hero has Qc Qh (three of a kind, queens).
Outcome: MP1 wins $8.05. Hero wins $0.20.

It turns out, that for me (and I doubt it's just me), then if I feel a certainty that a certain played has xx, then it's usually correct, and I'd best listen to that read. Not that I get them all the time, but when they're there they're reliable.

You disagree, and I say "cool." You're probably way beyond the 5,000 hand point anyway.

I don't agree with you saying Top pair top kicker "sucks". Top pair top kicker is a GOOD hand to have, as long as you play it properly, trusting reads here does help, but you have to be putting your opps on ranges throughout the hand (preflop, flop, turn, river). Ranges are something like PP 66+, A10+, stuff like this, not just AJ for sure, he must have AJ! I just know it! Top pair top kicker is strong as long as its played well.

True, and I could have made a more complex statement here, something more like "small hand small pot, big hand big pot."

It turns out, though, sometimes you'll hit 2 pair on the flop, be reraised huge, and know that the player making the raise has you beat. If you're new to the table this is marginal, but if you've watched the guy in the last 80 hands it might be a bit more dependable. Regardless, it's been my experience (at micro limits, of course) that someone will let you know when you're beat. I can generalize by saying that for my play, if I don't listen when some schmoe tells me I'm beat then I'm generally losing money. I hope to develop my reads better so in the future I can tell that the bozo has j3 and just hit his J before going all-in on a board of AKJ, but right now the number of times that's happened has been greatly shadowed by those where the bet was an honest one -- I was beat.

I completely disagree with you saying two pair sucks very often.. bottom 2 pair, sure, be cautious but top two pair (AK on AK6 board for example) can't be played as if you assume he has a set every single time, you just won't maximize profit this way. Two pair is very rarely not golden (depending on the board).

Depending on the board and on what the other player's telling you. I'm not trying to say "don't bet top 2 pair." I'm trying to say "don't call a $9 bet into a $1.30 pot if all you've got is top 2 pair." Better?

[chardrian]

Meh - you did doubt he had AA or you wouldn't have pushed the flop. I think all hartlin was trying to point out was that your call there was fine. We can SUSPECT we are beat sometimes but still have to grab our ankles and call - that too is just part of the game and something all beginners must learn as well.

But the gist of your idea to trust your reads is generally correct.

[Scrimmage]

Good post dzeanah, thanks

[dzeanah]

Meh - you did doubt he had AA or you wouldn't have pushed the flop. I think all hartlin was trying to point out was that your call there was fine. We can SUSPECT we are beat sometimes but still have to grab our ankles and call - that too is just part of the game and something all beginners must learn as well.

But the gist of your idea to trust your reads is generally correct.

True.

Hindsight and all that. Since then I've been trusting my gut a bit more, and I've been more profitable for it. My thinking that hand was actually "what're the odds that we'd both flop a set here? Are they less than the likelihood my read was on -- I mean, come on, how can you really tell the difference between KK or even AK sometimes..."

I've since learned that "what are the odds..." is a question that is often answered "greater than you think, dude."

And I'm not trying to be confrontational -- like I said up front, the main point of this is to try and get my own head straight. If I'm suffereing from noob-itis on a point and I'll eventually need to get over it, please tell me. If I'm kidding myself when I put someone on AA pre-flop and just happened to get lucky the dozen or so times I've done it, then please tell me so.

[dzeanah]

OK, question in follow-up.

If the flop is all undercards, are you going to fold? Doubt it, its -EV to do if you do.

We can SUSPECT we are beat sometimes but still have to grab our ankles and call - that too is just part of the game and something all beginners must learn as well.

What y'all are saying here is that there are times you're 90%+ certain that you're beaten, but you'll call anyway, right?

How do you differentiate between these hands and those where you say "you know, I just don't belong in this pot any more..."?

[Warpe]

NH dzeanah.

I agree that you can in many circumstances put an opponent on AA, exactly, preflop (usually because they overplay it as compared to other hands they've played).

On trusting your reads, in learning anything new there is a stage where we process information consciously until, through sheer repetition, we move to the next stage where we start to do it subconsciously and it becomes a habit(learning to drive would be an example).

I think the same thing happens in poker. Play enough hands and you reach a point where your gut knows what you should do before you do - because you've already processed the information coming in subconsciously and made a decision, well ahead of your conscious mind's consideration of the problem. Those are the times where reaching for the call button gives you that sick feeling in your stomach and, surprise surprise, the sick feeling turns out to be right!

Once you've learned to make good reads, TRUST THEM. You won't always be right (nobody is infallible, and deception is an integral part of the game) but you'll be right many, many more times than you'll be wrong.

Very good post.

[Hartlin]

If I believe that the play I am making is a +EV (positive expectation) play, I will make the play. I agree 110% about your thoughts about reads and how SO important they are. Reads are your best buddy.

I also agree with "small hand small pot". Don't build a big pot with a mediocre hand. Don't make it so big that you almost HAVE to call because its only $5 into a $25 pot already (at higher limits).

I am probably not NEAR 5,000 hands yet. I've only been playing online for roughly 2 months now, you've got me on amount of hands.

I'm not sure that I agree with "playing by your gut". Some people do this, and their gut is wrong more often than not. The best think you can do is get PokerStove (www.pokerstove.com) and as you're playing, try and put opps on hand ranges throughout and just input how your hand might do against theirs. If you're getting the right drawing odds, then you can play, if you aren't, figure out what implied odds you might get IF you hit your draw. Will the opp pay if you hit?

Reviewing your HHs is VERY crucial as well. As you review, do the same thing, try and pick out mistakes in your play and make sure you don't do it again. You're 5,000 hands deep, congrats on the 5k milestone, keep the hands going. As you play more and more, you'll see less mistakes as long as you stay dedicated in fixing your mistakes.

Goodluck in your endeavours and great discussion so far

[yorib]

Excellent post.

Consider me jumping on the TPTK/Top Two Pairs/overpairs are excellent, band wagon and I've gone AI with them numerous times. But that's all conditional on a meaningful pre-flop raise. If it's a limped pot then anyone can have anything and it's proceed at caution the entire way. There are plenty of players at the micro stakes who overvalue TPTK/ 2 pair/ Top pair and you can make them pay.

<<What y'all are saying here is that there are times you're 90%+ certain that you're beaten, but you'll call anyway, right?

How do you differentiate between these hands and those where you say "you know, I just don't belong in this pot any more..."?>>

The easy answer is the size of the bet in relation to the pot. (I'll call just about anything on the river if it's nominal in relation to the pot,.)

I'm sure that it also comes with subconciously recognizing betting patterns and realizing that the villians just doesn't make sense.

Finally, players lose big pots when the hands are very close in value (set over set, FH over FH, FH over nut flush, etc.). So it becomes almost impossible to lay down some of the above hands because you really don't know if the AA7Q2 board gave him Queen's over A or A over Q (vs. your A over 7) and I honestly beleive you're losing money by laying these down. So in the back of your mind you are irrationally thinking "He has to have me beat", but he doesn't.

[LimpinAintEZ]

I'm not sure that I agree with "playing by your gut". Some people do this, and their gut is wrong more often than not. The best think you can do is get PokerStove (www.pokerstove.com) and as you're playing, try and put opps on hand ranges throughout and just input how your hand might do against theirs. If you're getting the right drawing odds, then you can play, if you aren't, figure out what implied odds you might get IF you hit your draw. Will the opp pay if you hit?

Goodluck in your endeavours and great discussion so far

I think your gut is everything in poker - Math is for Limit players In NL there are so many marginal decisions where you have to just go with what you feel -

on the QQ situation - I don't mind losing that there - I have yet to lay down a flopped set to an all in on the flop when the board isn't really scary - AK gets played there the same way a lot - just my opinion - If you have THAT good a read, that would be a miraculous laydown....

[Hartlin]

Who is to say I don't play limit? I just took up limit 5 days ago, heh But for NL, I stand beside my thoughts that you have to put people on ranges by betting patterns and reads. Using your gut probably isn't the most profitable thing (for me at least). I guess, do what works for you?

[Lukie]

good post

but folding middle set on AQx board is just unheard of, and you should TRY to get involved with players that limp KK and re-reraise with 96o.

[Muley05]

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

saw flop|saw showdown

UTG ($9.20)
MP ($9.95)
Hero ($14.85)
Button ($3.55)
SB ($16.50)
BB ($3.15)

Preflop: Hero is CO with Q, Q.
2 folds, Hero raises to $0.3, 2 folds, BB raises to $0.5, Hero calls $0.20.

Flop: ($1.05) T, 4, Q (2 players)
BB bets $0.3, Hero raises to $1, BB calls $0.70.

Turn: ($3.05) 7 (2 players)
BB bets $0.4, Hero raises to $1.65, BB calls $1.25 (All-In).

River: ($6.35) T (2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: $6.35

Results in white below:
BB has Ad As (two pair, aces and tens).
Hero has Qc Qh (full house, queens full of tens).
Outcome: Hero wins $6.35.

I am definitely a beginner, but I don't understand how you could for sure put villain on AA in this hand. You raised preflop, he min-raised you back. He could have pretty much anything, imo. The flop misses him (sort of, since he does have an overpair) and he bets 1/3 the pot. You raise and he just calls. On the turn he makes a very weak bet, you push, he calls and you stack him. NH. But I really don't understand how you could put him on AA preflop. I do see it on the second hand, but there were lots more re-raises in that one.

[salsa4ever]

I'm glad that you've put the effort into making this post, and it shows you're thinking about your game and processed it to the point of being able to write it down. This is a good news.

The bad news is your post contains some of the worst advice I've ever seen. The last 4 observations are fine - good common sense. As is the first.

TPTK is the holding that puts food on your table. Just don't play it as if it's the nuts. Control the pot, make reads, make laydowns where appropriate but make pot-odds calls where appropriate also. Top 2 pair is a hand you play with just about no fear. Play it fast, and generally if they got bottom set, that's just too bad.

Overpairs again: see above

Trust your reads - true. Please read HOH1. I trust the others have taken apart your regret at folding QQQ on an AQx board. You didn't lay it down because consciously or not, you knew you couldn't lay middle set on a rainbow flop.

Consider pot odds too. If your read is you're probably beat but it's a $10 push into a $90 pot, well you have to call.

The hand where you got bet-raise-reraise with AA and there's still more than a stack to lose, well you probably did the right thing.

trust your reads also occurs on the other end of the scale. Just had a hand where it was checked to the button who made a <50% pot bet and the SB called. In BB with complete trash I raised pot, based on a read that button was on a steal and BB called with something like a gutshot or bottom pair based on pot odds. Example of the squeeze play post flop. I took the pot down. Another hand I had AK and the flop was QT7 and I cont bet out of position and he raised. I read that he was trying to steal or 'test me out' with a marginal holding and I pushed it in hoping he'd fold and thinking I might have 10 outs if he didn't. He called with 89 and my hand held up.

Finally, your post is tantamount to saying "don't do anything without the nuts". Well, you can do that, but meanwhile I'm taking the fishies' money with TPTK against their TPNK.

Good luck and keep learning

[dzeanah]

I tried to make a clear, concise, shockingly strong statement because, speaking as a noob myself, TPTK or an overpair looks like the nuts, and if you play it like that you'll get burned. The point was to make someone think "you know, there might be a reason to fear someone who bets into me when the board looks unthreatening."

Here's one from last night where I was playing exhausted because I couldn't sleep, and forgot what I said above (missed the flush card on the previous hand too -- bad night).


PokerStars Pot-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

saw flop|saw showdown

Button ($32.70)
Hero ($37.10)
BB ($39.65)
UTG ($14.80)
UTG+1 ($26.70)
MP1 ($4.45)
MP2 ($18.05)
MP3 ($52.75)
CO ($28.40)

Preflop: Hero is SB with K, K. CO posts a blind of $0.35.
UTG calls $0.25, UTG+1 calls $0.25, 3 folds, CO (poster) checks, Button calls $0.25, Hero raises to $1.85, BB calls $1.60, UTG folds, UTG+1 calls $1.60, CO folds, Button calls $1.60.

Flop: ($8) J, 6, 7 (4 players)
Hero bets $6, BB calls $6, UTG+1 folds, Button folds.

Turn: ($20) 8 (2 players)
Hero bets $11, BB raises to $22, Hero calls $11.

River: ($64) Q (2 players)
Hero checks, BB bets $9.8 (All-In), Hero calls $7.25 (All-In).

Final Pot: $81.05

Results in white below:
Hero has Kc Ks (one pair, kings).
BB has Js Jd (three of a kind, jacks).
Outcome: BB wins $81.05.

It happens. KK, AA, TPTK are (from a noob's perspective, again) hands that tend to win small pots or lose big ones. Sure you've got hands like this one below where you can label someone a donk and take their chips, but that's the read you're trusting, rather than the strength of your hand. Kind of like good players calling an all-in bet with medium pair on a solid read and being right.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

saw flop|saw showdown

SB ($11)
BB ($6.60)
UTG ($10)
UTG+1 ($8.65)
MP1 ($3.80)
MP2 ($11.20)
MP3 ($6.35)
CO ($2.55)
Hero ($10.90)

Preflop: Hero is Button with A, A.
UTG calls $0.10, UTG+1 calls $0.10, MP1 calls $0.10, MP2 calls $0.10, 2 folds, Hero raises to $0.5, 2 folds, UTG calls $0.40, UTG+1 calls $0.40, MP1 folds, MP2 calls $0.40.

Flop: ($2.25) 8, K, 9 (4 players)
UTG bets $1, UTG+1 calls $1, MP2 folds, Hero raises to $4, UTG raises to $9.5, UTG+1 folds, Hero calls $5.50.

Turn: ($22.25) 2 (2 players)

River: ($22.25) 8 (2 players)

Final Pot: $22.25

Results in white below:
UTG has Ad Kh (two pair, kings and eights).
Hero has Ac Ah (two pair, aces and eights).
Outcome: Hero wins $22.25.

Note that I was new to the table and my read wasn't that solid. From the log:

dzeanah said, "wish I had a read on you"
dzeanah said, "just make a set?"
dzeanah said, "Or overvaluing AK?"
dzeanah: calls $5.50

[dzeanah]

Would I have gotten as much flack if instead I'd written "TPTK/2 pairs/overpairs are great, and bet them strongly, but if you're reraised you'd best watch out 'cause there's a chance you're about to lose your stack?"

Would a new player think as much, reading that?

[jackvance]

Man that stuff about TPTK/2p/overpair is such nonsense. The important issue is your ability to read flops and hands. Saying that TPTK/2p/overpair sucks is as wrong as saying that they are great. It all depends on what range you put your opponent on, what the board has for options, etc.

I often see advice towards new players to be "you need to be able to lay down TPTK". Well, that's not the issue. You need to learn flop-reading and hand-reading, then it'll become more obvious in and of itself when your TPTK is probably good and when it isn't!

If you're gonna play your TPTK like the nuts, you'll get burned. But if you're gonna lay them down everytime I raise you with my draw or whatever - maybe even because I notice you always fold to aggression -, you're canning yourself out of a lot of money.

[Cocco_Bill]

Man that stuff about TPTK/2p/overpair is such nonsense. The important issue is your ability to read flops and hands. Saying that TPTK/2p/overpair sucks is as wrong as saying that they are great. It all depends on what range you put your opponent on, what the board has for options, etc.

I often see advice towards new players to be "you need to be able to lay down TPTK". Well, that's not the issue. You need to learn flop-reading and hand-reading, then it'll become more obvious in and of itself when your TPTK is probably good and when it isn't!

so true

[yorib]

I guess I've had good luck at the low stakes because my biggest winners are AA/KK/AK and I routinely do well with TPTK and overpairs. The only conclusion I can come to is that you are tipping your hand. If you only raise/reraise with AA/KK/AK then any aware player will narrow down your hand range quickly and you'll find yourself getting called by "drawing hands" and people will either fold the flop, or catch a monster and make you pay.

It's also what makes hands like AJ/AQ so challenging to call a raise with because you can have TPTK and lose to an overpair.

I'm not sure if it's a beginners tip or not, but you (the general beginner) need to raise (and reraise) with enough hands so that you become difficult to read.

Good luck,

[Muxy]

What I've learned after 5,000 hands

that a 5k hand sample size means squat.