The lure of a good hand

[jackvance]

So I buy-in at my usual $5.. (ok no flames about that now plz) Creep my way up to $9. I'm pretty happy about myself here, adding 80%. But then I was thinking, damn, I never even once got a good hand preflop. So I leeched these winnings with pretty crappy hands.

Just as I thought this, I got AK. Ok, not the best hand in the world, I vastly prefer the higher pps, but atleast it's a hand I can raise with for a change. Throw 50cents, usually good for 1-2 callers. The whole table joins in. Wtf. Flop is all low cards. Minimal raises all round, which, together with the huge size of the pot, justify me going for my 6 outs. In the end the pot is taken by A7-guy going hitting pair of 7s. Hmf. Next hand I get AJ. Ok, not a winner, but in 6max already a pretty good one. another raise, get 2 callers now. KJx on the flop, I c-bet, get reraised.. and like a DONK I call it. A microsecond later I'm thinking.. bloody hell, what did you do that for? Big raise on the turn and I fold instantly. (guy had KJ) So now I'm down to $4.90. After my "good hands".

Irony.. maybe, but I think in part what might have caused me to throw needless money away there, is the "expectation" to make money off of a playable hand. A very dangerous thing. A leak even. A better hand gives you better odds than a weaker hands.. but to think it has to pay off is donk-play! Ok, I do expect AA and KK to pay off in the vast majority of times, but they're the REAL killer hands ofcourse.

Epilogue:
So it continues, I get a suited connector, hop in there (on the sb I think) with the rest of the table, chase my flush draw with nice odds, it hits and I'm up to $7.

So now I'm thinking, man, who freaking needs a good preflop hand lol. Ok, it's not rational ofcourse, stay focussed on the odds instead of the results jack! Good I said that to myself, cuz right after I got QJs, got in the middle of 3-way brawl and took the pot with yet another flush. Cashed out with $17.

[midas06]

At microstakes, taking a big hand and dropping the hammer > playing smallball with rags.

[ed]

When I look down at AK I usually go "yay, I hope they fold". Especially if I'm not in late position and there's already limpers (obviously). I'm just not confident about how to play a missed AK.

[jackvance]

A higher pp like JJ is so much easier to play. If you get a shitty flop like 248 rainbow, atleast you got a nice overpair to go off. With AK.. eh? Check/fold? But here I threw a huger than usual raise out, to hope to narrow the field, and essentially what you said, hope they fold. Or get one guy and hope you can c-bet him out of the hand. But then the whole table joined in and it missed.

[ed]

Goal for the weekend will be to learn how to play AK properly. Plan of attack is to first go through the AK examples / hand histories I can find on the forum, then analyze my own hands, followed by asking for feedback on them.

[Stagemn]

Look at who you play and not what you play with when you don't hit it.
A Passive (Fish/Rock) will call you with a hand, fold without. Aggressives can be a bit dangerous, especially if they are Loose. That is why when you pre-flop raise, you limit the number of those who are to see the flop. You get one, or maybe two, to go to the flop, you can win provided if no one hits (using c-bets). You play against 3 or more, and it check/fold here. Beware of loose players though. Don't C-Bet them. Semi-loose is questionable, but Rocks and Fish are great to C-Bet into unless they did hit. Flop bets in this AK situation call for value bets and/or C-Bets unless you're playing a maniac or bomb. You have to know who you're playing when you do hit it and how if no one hit, how you can still win with Ace high.

[jackvance]

I just lost $2 when I got my flush with T high, but the other guy hit the flush with J high. Right the hand after I won back $1.5 with nothing vs nothing A high lol..

[Pelion]

AK makes its money when you hit an Axx flop and AJ called your raise.

Dont get upset just because you got a low card flop. Do some maths and look at how unlikely it actually is to hit the flop with AK.

[biondino]

I've played a lot over the last three days - 1500 hands or so - and in that time I have been destacked twice and destacked others 8 times (this is at £25 and $25). One of these stackings was with AK and TPTK (he decided to try to bully me with third pair no kicker but didn't realise that byt the river I only needed to win 16% of the time to make a crying call); the others were with flushes, straight and, best of all, boats. Sample hands which won stacks for me: T3o (from BB), 86o, 89s, 78s, 8Ts.

Small sample size, yadda yadda yadda, but if I didn't play SCs and occasionaly gappers and unsuited connectors, I'd have 1/4 of the profit.

(haha - seems the 8 is my lucky card)

[Rondavu]

This level is about seeing flops and taking stacks with winning showdowns. Preflop raises are more pot builders than anything else. Much like Omaha. You raise AK here because it's likely the best hand. You punish the callers who have less. You then must avoid rewarding the hands that outflop you by hanging around too long with bad odds. You can't justify their bad calls before the flop, by handing over implied odds like candy.

If you raise into a villain with a better hand, and then he outflops you, you hit him on the short end, and must deny him value on the long end to effectively "win" the hand even though he won the pot.

[chardrian]

Goal for the weekend will be to learn how to play AK properly. Plan of attack is to first go through the AK examples / hand histories I can find on the forum, then analyze my own hands, followed by asking for feedback on them.

Learning how to play AK profitably preflop is pretty easy.

AK postflop could take pages and pages - it all depends on your position, stacks, table image and reads.

[jackvance]

I've played a lot over the last three days - 1500 hands or so - and in that time I have been destacked twice and destacked others 8 times (this is at £25 and $25). One of these stackings was with AK and TPTK (he decided to try to bully me with third pair no kicker but didn't realise that byt the river I only needed to win 16% of the time to make a crying call); the others were with flushes, straight and, best of all, boats. Sample hands which won stacks for me: T3o (from BB), 86o, 89s, 78s, 8Ts.

Small sample size, yadda yadda yadda, but if I didn't play SCs and occasionaly gappers and unsuited connectors, I'd have 1/4 of the profit.

(haha - seems the 8 is my lucky card)

Great post, thx. Today I've been in a bit of poker confusion to be honest; As if the general ideas I had about poker were kinda wrong; I think you put into words somewhat the things I had been "feeling" here.

So just when I thought, yet again, that I had reached another level of skill and insight.. I noticed that I actually didn't know squat about poker!

I even started to ask myself rather conceptual questions.. how "good" are these "good hands" I was talking about earlier really?! And, why the heck do people RAISE in the first place? It might seem trivial, but it really is not. There are actually different forces at work here. One of them being that you take claims to the pot; If you want to contest my claim there, you have to call my raise. Another is that you put a price on your opponent seeing the next card. The difference might not be very clear, but it does have VERY different implications in the math and odds underlying it. But then even THAT is not the whole story. Because if it were, you'd hypothecate the pot and the ability for your opponents to see more cards the very second you have the best odds to win; Or in other words, you'd push all-in with AA preflop every time. So why don't people do this? Because it doesn't maximize your profit potential.

And I wondered how the heck I managed to run any sort of profit in the past, with the extremely low skill I had.. and concluded it had more to do with the suckyness of my opponents at 10NL; their against-the-odds decisions and most of all their willingness to commit their stack to feeble holdings like middle pair!

More thinking needs to be done here.. not so much what the odds to this and that are.. but rather, where the heck those odds come from!

[biondino]

Jack, please tell me if this comment is out of order, but I wonder if you think almost TOO much about poker. I get the feeling that your thinking has jumped ahead of your play, and I worry that the gap between theory and experience might not lead to trouble for you.

In the post you quote, I say I made most of my recent profit playing suited gappers/connectors etc., and indeed I did. But I also have spent 60,000-odd hands learning *just about* how to play such hands, and the reason I feel I am now able to do so is because I have a "feel" fgor the game which I suspect only comes from playing hand after hand after hand.

You are almost too good a student, like a 3rd grader who is so bright he studies up to 7th grade level at home and then gets to class and discovers he's in some kind of limbo between what he knows and what he is expected to know.

[jackvance]

Hm, that last thing kinda describes me as a kid. But not for a long time anymore, atleast in my studies. Much to the aggravation of my parents, I never do anything. I flunk most of my classes year after year lol. But I guess it's still inside me when I actually get motivated for something :P

Anyway, what can I say, I'm a big geek. I've spent the last few hours mathematically analysing basically the entire game of poker and the rules that govern it. Still at it now, quite some time to go too. There were some things in my head that just didn't add up, that kept confusing me. And I hate that. Finally got to where I went wrong, but still more to do. I don't really mind doing this either, I figure I can hopefully turn poker into a little side-income in the future, if need be. Reached some nice conclusions, but like most of the things I post here, that will probably just be psycho-babble that only makes sense to me, so I won't bore you guys with it

Funny thing though.. the previous semester I was in my "going out, socializing and picking up girls"-phase, and everyone (talking about real life people) was all like "wow", "how do you do it?", "teach me too" bla bla. Now everyone is all like "man wtf are you playing poker for all day?!" Lol, whatever..

[biondino]

Sacrificing girls for poker is a VERY worrying development - are you sure you've got your priorities right?

[biondino]

Though obv sacrificing girls for the poker gods is entirely acceptable. Carry on.

[Bugeye]

Every time I get dealt an AK offsuit I inwardly cringe. I lose regularly with this hand. In fact I think AK stands for Anna Kournikova. Sure, she looks great, but she also never wins any money.

[DWayneBos]

Checking my PokerOffice stats..

I have seen AK 19 times in 2700 hands, seen the flop everytime, only won 5 times. Over all, I have lost $.50 each hand (at 10/NL).

Which tells me.. I need to learn how to play AK post flop.

Just last evening, I lost $6 to a straight (A-1o) with two pair (Aces and Kings).

[bantam222]

Checking my PokerOffice stats..

I have seen AK 19 times in 2700 hands, seen the flop everytime, only won 5 times. Over all, I have lost $.50 each hand (at 10/NL).

Which tells me.. I need to learn how to play AK post flop.

Just last evening, I lost $6 to a straight (A-1o) with two pair (Aces and Kings).

with such a small sample size shit like that will change it alot.
That hand took your profit per hand down about $0.30

[ekillian]

Funny thing though.. the previous semester I was in my "going out, socializing and picking up girls"-phase, and everyone (talking about real life people) was all like "wow", "how do you do it?", "teach me too" bla bla. Now everyone is all like "man wtf are you playing poker for all day?!" Lol, whatever..

Stopping this to go buy in for $5 and hope to make $4 is the stupidest thing I've ever heard. I could kind of understand if you were socializing less to play 50NL or higher, but not so much that people are calling you out on it (unless you're playing profitably at 200NL or higher than it's whatever). But really get your fucking priorities straight.
I'm a college student also by the way. Pledging a fraternity this semester and still playing plenty of poker but not so much that it messes with my social life. Help it helps my social life because I buy alcohol with the money and used a lot of the money for Spring break. What can you buy with $4? I don't mean to be an asshole but damn.

[jackvance]

The reason is:
1) I can't help it. If it's on my mind, that's all that's on my mind.
2) I picked up poker less than a month ago. Didn't even know the rules before that. My way of doing things is to "freak" on something for a relatively short period of time, to get good at it quick so I can ease on that skill after, rather than moderately learn over a longer stretched period of time.

It's not like I'm gonna be like this for months. How it usually goes is that when I get a sense that it's going ok or something, the urge goes away and I move on to new projects.

[ekillian]

K, that's more understandable. I kind of have that tendancy to, though maybe not to the same extreme. I dunno.

[jackvance]

I think it's genetic. My dad does it too. But anyway, it seems like my "freaky learning phase" is finally drawing to an end..

(a clear sign it's over will be when I stop making huge elaborate posts on this forum, haha)

[ekillian]

I think it's genetic. My dad does it too. But anyway, it seems like my "freaky learning phase" is finally drawing to an end..

(a clear sign it's over will be when I stop making huge elaborate posts on this forum, haha)

based on those elaborate posts I must encourage your learning phase to continue. And this teaching phase must stop. lol

[jackvance]

Now don't get too smart with me.

[Pelion]

Every time I get dealt an AK offsuit I inwardly cringe. I lose regularly with this hand. In fact I think AK stands for Anna Kournikova. Sure, she looks great, but she also never wins any money.

Its not about the number of times you win. Its about winning the most when you win, and losing the least when you dont.

Try giving it a go where you dont cbet at all when you miss for a week or so and just value bet smaller Aces to death instead. Then throw in some cbetting against specific opponents once you have figured out where your profit comes from.

AK can win alot of small pots when you miss.
it can win a few medium-large pots when you hit and you are being called
And it can lose some truly massive pots when you hit and you get raised.


Dont be afraid to check/fold when the flop comes J86 and you have AK against a loose player. Theres a good chance he has a pair or a draw that he isnt letting go of so wait until he has A3 and the flop comes A86 instead.

[sejje]

Jack, since you've already been in the "girls" phase, does that mean you're done with them now?

Anyway, I know what you mean, I work in little kicks too. I get into something new, go to the library/bookstore and read up, blow a bunch of money on whatever it is you need to entail that particular pursuit, and then give it up shortly thereafter.

I don't entirely give them up, but I rarely pursue them anymore. Among my casualties: flyfishing (and tying), kayaking (quite related to flyfishing. I really should sell that kayak I spent half my poker bankroll on), paintballing, photography (This isn't really a casualty. It's just quite the backseat to girlfriend & poker), leatherwork (blech, don't get me started), certain video games, aquarium keeping...I'm sure there's a few I've forgotten, and I'm only 22.


Anyway, I also wanted to respond to something you said earlier.

there, is the "expectation" to make money off of a playable hand.

This is exactly why we play it.

That doesn't mean you have to donk off chips when you're beat. It means it stands to be the best hand (not counting small pairs which generally can't stomach a cbet), so we play it.

A higher pp like JJ is so much easier to play. If you get a shitty flop like 248 rainbow, atleast you got a nice overpair to go off. With AK.. eh?

I don't agree here. It's easy to get stacked with JJ, but it's not easy to get stacked with AK. For one, as supersystem points out, you have to hit the flop to get stacked, and that's one less card that your opponent can hit. When you see only three cards, that counts for a lot. If you whiff, you throw your cbet and puss out to any resistance. It's fairly simple, really. Try playing it in shorthanded limit, THAT makes for some stupid/tough decisions.

As for JJ, it's really easy to become disillusioned by it. On that same flop, I'm rarely getting stacked with 99. Much more often with JJ. All of the hands mentioned should be easy to play after that flop; what is putting money in the pot on that flop? Overpairs and sets, pretty much. I personally wouldn't put any money in a raised pot with A8 on that flop, and certainly not any weaker holdings.

[jackvance]

Jack, since you've already been in the "girls" phase, does that mean you're done with them now?

Lol no.. I'm still a guy. It's more that this "seduction" phase was to quickly hone my skills. Now that I kinda got that down, I can just use it in my regular daily routine. (heck, for some odd reason, once I got good at it, much to the surprise of my friends ánd me, women started coming to me, dunno how that happened) It's just that when I "freak" on something new, all else must once again wait.

Anyway, I know what you mean, I work in little kicks too. I get into something new, go to the library/bookstore and read up, blow a bunch of money on whatever it is you need to entail that particular pursuit, and then give it up shortly thereafter.

Ya. It's the burden of an overactive mind. Ofcourse it has great benefits too. I get better at stuff faster than most people when I get the virus for it.

But yeah, seems like the "freaky" part of the learning phase is really ending now. Tied up some loose ends yesterday, contacted a bunch of people I had been neglected, set up plans for the weeks to come, the usual. Little apology for being so out of touch, no biggie, they know how I am.

Then I finally dropped by some buddies of mine yesterday night. Ironically, the poker friends, lol. Was quite an eye-opener to see the ease at which they threw money and hammered their BR up in 50NL, 100NL and 200NL. Problem with these guys (one in particular, the guy with by far the most skill) is that when they double up on one stake, they go to a higher one, and this process repeats itselfs until they go broke. Watching them play heads-on games was especially a revelation.

Basically they started with $120 that this one guy that actually works, put in his account. Then they did some high-roller MTTs, no luck there. 6ring was little profit. So they raided a few guys on 50NL and 100NL heads-on. Then went broke on a 200NL guy mano a mano. Quite an unreal situation. The guy called a reraise of $16 on his initial $6 with what turned out to be 92s! (what the hell right?) Flop was 722. Turn 2. My friend was holding AJ, and the river gave an A. The nuts apart from the total unlikelyhood this guy would have had a 2. All-in and all gone. Unreal.

So I went back home, and played some poker. I know the odds, the math.. now I mainly wanted to emulate the attitude and thinking patterns with which they played. Had some set-backs adjusting it to 10NL, but I started to get the hand of it. Went to sleep. Got up earlier, played some more.. and finally, for the first time ever, felt like my game was solidifying. Also my BR is back on the safe side now.

I hope I can keep this systematical way of playing that I have developed up. It needs some more time, to cut off the edges, but it is looking good. If I can keep this up, 10NL should be a breeze. One or two stakes higher should be possible, maybe. We'll see when I get there, whenever that may be.

So I'm still playing poker ofcourse. Just that the phase in which I looked at nothing else to get it down as fast as possible has nearly ended now. So now I need mainly tons of experience; And I'll try to see how I can fit poker in my daily schedule from now on. April 8 will be my "one month at poker" anniversary lol. So yeah, it still seems to be going according to plan. I didn't even count on becoming a profitable player for months, so I still got plenty of time to screw around with it . We'll see. Money is hurting, but I got some other tracks to get cash that I've started picking up again now. And in a few days, probably gonna resume "picking up" other things as well, if you know what I mean


EDIT: oh and just ignore the stuff I said about poker before. My game and understanding has been evolving and changing too quickly to really take it for what it's worth anymore. Give me a week or so to rake up some more experience and then I'll be better able to give real opinions on poker matters.