If I completely remove your ability to c-bet...

[Irisheyes]

... and restrict every preflop raise you make to exactly 5xbb, which always gets you two callers - what are you raising preflop and why?


When I say c-bet I mean continuation betting with A high or less. You can't bet draws.

[Fnord]

When am I allowed to bet?

[Irisheyes]

When you make a pair or greater on the flop. When I say c-bet I mean continuation betting with A high or less. You can't bet draws.

[Fnord]

When you make a pair or greater on the flop. When I say c-bet I mean continuation betting with A high or less. You can't bet draws.

Any pocket pair, I'm always betting my pair on the flop.

[AHiltz]

Every pair. I would not raise suited connectors or gappers if I'm not allowed to cbet on a draw or air. I'd also raise AK and KQ for TPTK value.

[Fnord]

I'd also raise AK and KQ for TPTK value.

Sir, the limit table is down the hall!

[Irisheyes]

When you make a pair or greater on the flop. When I say c-bet I mean continuation betting with A high or less. You can't bet draws.

Any pocket pair, I'm always betting my pair on the flop.

I see where you're going with this so let me say you can only raise TT and up preflop. Removing your ability to c-bet I equate with playing with 9 of the worst calling stations you ever saw.

[Vrax]

Unimproved pocket pair (TT+) as overpair or second pair, improved pocket pair on any flop (obvious), top pair, middle pair Ace kicker, bottom pair+draw.

Or better.

Too nitty?

[BankItDrew]

TT-AA, AK from any position. 88-99 in LP. To build the pot and minimize opponents post flop.

sir yes sir may i have another!?

[Demiparadigm]

When you make a pair or greater on the flop. When I say c-bet I mean continuation betting with A high or less. You can't bet draws.

Any pocket pair, I'm always betting my pair on the flop.

I see where you're going with this so let me say you can only raise TT and up preflop. Removing your ability to c-bet I equate with playing with 9 of the worst calling stations you ever saw.

1) Why don't you tell us exactly what we are allowed to raise, and how to play on the flop, and then ask how we would play?

2) Hand strengh is not determined by what you have on the flop. It is determined by how often you will win the hand by the river. Because of that, even of you KNOW people will call, it will be correct to bet draws often. In the same respect, it can be incorrect to bet a weak pair.

3) Not being able to bet a weak hand is very different than being ensured of a call. The reason for this is twofold:
a- equity as I mentioned earlier. Your equity can often make it correct to bet into a field.
b- pot control. betting a weak hand to make the pot larget can help get you larger bets in the future, and the converse- making a large pot can force you to call bets later if you are outdrawn.

[Fnord]

Because of that, even of you KNOW people will call, it will be correct to bet draws often.

to build a pot, so you can make bigger money bets when you hit.

[Irisheyes]

When you make a pair or greater on the flop. When I say c-bet I mean continuation betting with A high or less. You can't bet draws.

Any pocket pair, I'm always betting my pair on the flop.

I see where you're going with this so let me say you can only raise TT and up preflop. Removing your ability to c-bet I equate with playing with 9 of the worst calling stations you ever saw.

1) Why don't you tell us exactly what we are allowed to raise, and how to play on the flop, and then ask how we would play?

2) Hand strengh is not determined by what you have on the flop. It is determined by how often you will win the hand by the river. Because of that, even of you KNOW people will call, it will be correct to bet draws often. In the same respect, it can be incorrect to bet a weak pair.

3) Not being able to bet a weak hand is very different than being ensured of a call. The reason for this is twofold:
a- equity as I mentioned earlier. Your equity can often make it correct to bet into a field.
b- pot control. betting a weak hand to make the pot larget can help get you larger bets in the future, and the converse- making a large pot can force you to call bets later if you are outdrawn.

2) The only pure draw which can be a favorite against any made hand preflop is a OESFD right? What other draw can be profitable to bet if you ignore FE?

3) Yeah you're right, there is thing's involved which I neglected to take into account.


What I intended to look into was the value of raising unpaired hands when playing with tables of calling stations. Tables where you are almost ensured of a call from at least one player on any flop and unmade hand continuation betting has negative expectation.

[Demiparadigm]

You need 13 outs to be a favorite HU.
You need 9 to have positive equity 3 handed.
If you have only 4 clean outs to the nuts, and 7 players go all in before action gets to you, you have a profitable call.

The reason you raise hands like AK is not their ability to win a pot with a continuation bet. It is their ability to win the pot at showdown. This is why you call with AK when the short stack pushes in a tournament. You often have the best hand, and you often will improve to the best hand if you are behind. It has nothing to do with your ability to get the all in guy to fold later.

All of the "standard" raising hands in no limit (TT-AA, AJ+ KQ) have enough equity preflop that they are correct to raise even if (and especially when) you are guaranteed to get called after the flop.

[Pelion]

What other draw can be profitable to bet if you ignore FE?

Well if you are against a pretty simple player it might be profitable to bet with any strong draw if it will convince him that you are not on the draw. That could give you huge implied odds with big enough stacks whereas check/calling for that third flush card will make him fold as soon as the flush comes.
So betting the draw could boost your implied odds in some situations against some players. .