New to the Game - Attempting an Ultra-Fast Rise, Advice

[Stoic5]

Hello to you all at FTR!

I am attempting to advance extremely quickly in poker. My experience to date consists of freerolls and theory - reading tons of poker books, strategy articles, forum archives, videos etc. My goal is a to earn a $30/hour rate (live or online) in 3 months. I realize that this is going to be incredibly challenging, I'm expecting some criticism here, but this is what I want to try.

Some background info - I live in the U.S. The Nearest Casino (Foxwoods) is a 1.5 hour drive. Moving out of the U.S to play online will be possible in 3 months. I can dedicate 40 hours/wk to playing and studying the game. IQ roughly 135, not a genius by any means but I am mathematically inclined. High self discipline. Roughly 4 grand bankroll. no other income source atm. Game of choice is NL Holdem

I'm looking for some general advice. Is this plan even possible for someone in my position? If not, how could I make it so? And most importantly, how would you all who have experience go about it? Looking for you who have made it before me to lay some insight on the best path to take.

Looking forward to everyone's advice! and spending a lot of time here

[Deucebag]

expect a lot of disappointment

[mondayscool]

have a plan B

[Deucebag]

Have a plan C, D, and E since B, C, and D are likely as hare brained.

[Icanhastreebet]

Easily possible if you actually dedicate the 40hrs/week(more preferably) to playing/studying for the 3months. I'm assuming you are only dedicating 40hrs/week because you have some other obligation IE a job. If you don't then you should be dedicating >>>40hrs/week if this is your main source of income for the next 3 months etc.

[Savy]

Can't wait to read about you when you win your first WSOP braclet this year.

[Stoic5]

Easily possible if you actually dedicate the 40hrs/week(more preferably) to playing/studying for the 3months. I'm assuming you are only dedicating 40hrs/week because you have some other obligation IE a job. If you don't then you should be dedicating >>>40hrs/week if this is your main source of income for the next 3 months etc.

You are Correct, I have to dedicate a good chunk of time to college, and sleeping . I graduate in 3 months. I will not need to be profitable until then. How would you break down the study/practice path to make it as quick as possible?

Can't wait to read about you when you win your first WSOP braclet this year.

me too, buddy

Rest of you - I've got my fallback plans taken care of.... that's not what I'm asking for help with here. Advice on how to do it anyone?

[Cobra_1878]

LOL. Just LOL.

Edit - Have you ever actually played for money then or is it exclusively freerolls and reading? If so, forget your bankroll and start at $10NL to get a feel for it.

[Pascal]

Advice on how to do it? Don't. It's a great dream and ambition but one of the key things you need for poker is experience. If you do want to try and do it, just get a part time job to go alongside so that you're guaranteed an income. The worst that can then happen is you break even for a few months if the poker dream doesn't work out and move on. The last thing you want to do is dedicate money and time to poker and have nothing to show from it apart from being totally broke and having a big gap on your CV.

You'll quickly find freerolls are very different to real money. Do you want to play cash games or tournaments?

[Savy]

Rest of you - I've got my fallback plans taken care of.... that's not what I'm asking for help with here. Advice on how to do it anyone?

Why do you want to play poker so much btw?

From what you've said it looks like you haven't played much at all and more time spent player =/= more winnings.

I don't think you realise the commitment it is to say you want to sit down every day and play poker (or study) for 6 hours a day.

[HarryHatless]

Looking for you who have made it before me to lay some insight on the best path to take.

One of the problems is that you are asking this in the 'Beginners Circle' forum. So most of the people here (including me) have not made it before you and are therefore unlikely to be able to offer any solid recommendations.

[Pascal]

Harry, because it's the "Beginners Circle" doesn't mean no one who has "made it" posts here. It's just somewhere to put beginners questions. Maybe read a few threads and you'll see most of the people who post regularly do actually know what they're talking about, unlike some of the people who post less often

[MadMojoMonkey]

Read this:

noobies-first-5k-hands-10nl-guide

[HarryHatless]

Harry, because it's the "Beginners Circle" doesn't mean no one who has "made it" posts here. It's just somewhere to put beginners questions. Maybe read a few threads and you'll see most of the people who post regularly do actually know what they're talking about, unlike some of the people who post less often

I take your point and having read a lot more than "a few threads" I don't doubt that most regular posters know what they are talking about. I do however note that despite knowing what they are talking about, most regular posters are still struggling in the micros, or why else post so many hands asking for help?

I genuinely hope the OP does get a response along the lines of, "Well this is how I did it. I started off ...." But I suspect that he might be more likely to get such a response if he posted his request elsewhere. Taking this into a/c my advice to Stoic5 is to copy this post to a variety of fora on a variety of other sites. This will maximise his chances of getting useful advice. Although I see he has already made the exact same post on cardschat.com, pokerstrategy.com and 2+2 so my advice may be unnecessary.

[Stoic5]

Advice on how to do it? Don't. It's a great dream and ambition but one of the key things you need for poker is experience. If you do want to try and do it, just get a part time job to go alongside so that you're guaranteed an income. The worst that can then happen is you break even for a few months if the poker dream doesn't work out and move on. The last thing you want to do is dedicate money and time to poker and have nothing to show from it apart from being totally broke and having a big gap on your CV.

You'll quickly find freerolls are very different to real money. Do you want to play cash games or tournaments?

Thanks for the honest advice. I am in a unique situation in which I will be graduating with a Mechanical Engineering Degree in 3months. Job offers at 60k+ already. I want to play poker, so the degree is a failsafe. I may pick up a PT job on the side if absolutely necessary. Cash games are my favorite. NL hold'em particularly. But I want to learn everything. As Sklansky said paraphrased, Not be the guy playing in the all-pro NLHold'em game while the drunken fish stud game is going on next table over.

Why do you want to play poker so much btw?

From what you've said it looks like you haven't played much at all and more time spent player =/= more winnings.

I don't think you realise the commitment it is to say you want to sit down every day and play poker (or study) for 6 hours a day.

I have some experience playing live tourneys and cash, FT until black friday break-even overall. I love it. I didn't mention it because I don't believe I learned much at all from the experience.

Read this:

http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerforum/beginners-circle/noobies-first-5k-hands-10nl-guide-links-advice-157914.html"]noobies-first-5k-hands-10nl-guide

thanks man!

Harry- Yes, that is the rare advice I am trying to find. Most people took years to do what I am trying to in a few months. I am trying to learn from them so that my path is a straight to the goal as it can be.

[rpm]

my one tip would be to start learning as much as you can about ranges. and not just theory-learnin', real opponent's ranges.

edit: well, other than implement sound bankroll strategy etc etc

[spoonitnow]

You would be much better off just getting a job in your field and waiting for a couple of years. If you're only making $30/hour, poker is a miserable way to earn a living.

[daviddem]

^^ +1, you can't possibly expect to make $60k/year out of poker on short notice. And that is not even considering that you are wasting on-the-job experience, which is also worth a lot of future $$$ (hint: "professional poker player" is worth zip on your engineer's resume).

Besides, if you are willing to go overseas to play poker, then I assume you also wouldn't mind working overseas, and you can make much more than $60k doing that.

You'd be much better off learning poker as a hobby on the side. You can still spend considerable time at the tables after work and on weekends.

[Luco]

My advice would be to start a blog here on ftr so we can watch your progress.

Also, pay for coaching.

[DoubleJ]

pay for coaching.

this ^^^

investing some of that $4K will show a marked improvement, faster.

I can recommend Carroters. Dunno if he's taking on new students right now, so mebbe ping him a PM?

[daviddem]

^^ I'd play at least 20k hands before coaching though (at 10nl, not at 100nl, by all means). Use a database/HUD, this will allow your coach to review your game and focus the sessions on plugging your leaks.

Also, if you're used to freeroll and live play, you will find the online cash games much tougher.

[MadMojoMonkey]

The coach idea is really a must for your ambition.

Also, I don't know if you're aware, but you're hardly the only poster here with a math/science degree (I have a degree in Engineering Physics/ME). I got my degree a year ago and I've only found temporary contract work since. The job market is not a fertile place right now; if you're getting career offers, you should take one. If you wait 3 months before you start considering offers, those positions may be filled by other recent grads.

If you're half as hard-working as you claim, taking the career will be a lighter load than your college courses, so you'll actually have more time for poker after you've graduated, even if you're working a 40 hr/week job.

The risk vs reward calculation is a clear indication that poker should not be your primary goal until you're making $30 /hr or more at the tables. When your expected hourly profit playing poker is greater than your salary, then you seriously consider the switch to full-time poker player.

Also, and I don't know if you're interested, but... NLHE is a highly complex poker game, with many levels of strategic thinking involved. Consider playing 5-card draw or a limit game while you're still learning fundamentals. There are fewer fundamentals to learn in those games, and poker tactics translate well across games.

[Luco]

Also, I don't know if you're aware, but you're hardly the only poster here with a math/science degree

Thousands of your opponents will have degrees too.

[Icanhastreebet]

I assumed you were some kid who just started school. This is a very bad idea. The longer you sit on a degree without job experience the less likely you are to get a job. If you are really ambitious spend most of your time finding a job and do this on the side.

[Stoic5]

my one tip would be to start learning as much as you can about ranges. and not just theory-learnin', real opponent's ranges.

edit: well, other than implement sound bankroll strategy etc etc

Thanks, thats #1 for me right now. My ranges seem to mean shit on freerolls. I'm hoping that they have more meaning at the micros

^^ +1, you can't possibly expect to make $60k/year out of poker on short notice. And that is not even considering that you are wasting on-the-job experience, which is also worth a lot of future $$$ (hint: "professional poker player" is worth zip on your engineer's resume).

Besides, if you are willing to go overseas to play poker, then I assume you also wouldn't mind working overseas, and you can make much more than $60k doing that.

You'd be much better off learning poker as a hobby on the side. You can still spend considerable time at the tables after work and on weekends.

Point taken, thanks for the advice. I actually haven't considered an ME job overseas, didn't know they were paid higher.

My advice would be to start a blog here on ftr so we can watch your progress.

Also, pay for coaching.

Thanks for the advice, will start the blog as soon as I map out a plan of what I'm going to do. coaching seems to be a common theme.

this ^^^

investing some of that $4K will show a marked improvement, faster.

I can recommend Carroters. Dunno if he's taking on new students right now, so mebbe ping him a PM?

thanks, will check it out.

^^ I'd play at least 20k hands before coaching though (at 10nl, not at 100nl, by all means). Use a database/HUD, this will allow your coach to review your game and focus the sessions on plugging your leaks.

Also, if you're used to freeroll and live play, you will find the online cash games much tougher.

I will start off doing exactly this. Deposit online and play shit tons of hands at the micros with PT3. Do you recommend single tabling to learn range and game concepts better, or multitabling to see more hands?

The coach idea is really a must for your ambition.

Also, I don't know if you're aware, but you're hardly the only poster here with a math/science degree (I have a degree in Engineering Physics/ME). I got my degree a year ago and I've only found temporary contract work since. The job market is not a fertile place right now; if you're getting career offers, you should take one. If you wait 3 months before you start considering offers, those positions may be filled by other recent grads.

If you're half as hard-working as you claim, taking the career will be a lighter load than your college courses, so you'll actually have more time for poker after you've graduated, even if you're working a 40 hr/week job.

The risk vs reward calculation is a clear indication that poker should not be your primary goal until you're making $30 /hr or more at the tables. When your expected hourly profit playing poker is greater than your salary, then you seriously consider the switch to full-time poker player.

Also, and I don't know if you're interested, but... NLHE is a highly complex poker game, with many levels of strategic thinking involved. Consider playing 5-card draw or a limit game while you're still learning fundamentals. There are fewer fundamentals to learn in those games, and poker tactics translate well across games.

Thanks for the advice. You are 100% correct, I realize that taking a job and playing part time is the most feasible option. I'm doing this because I want to try something difficult. I will be specializing in NL poker but trying to learn all games - figure it makes sense for live play, and could add some perspective to my holdem game

[daviddem]

Point taken, thanks for the advice. I actually haven't considered an ME job overseas, didn't know they were paid higher.

Not only you're paid more, but you also get tax breaks and often benefits like housing and car allowance. As far as I know if you are US citizen, unlike most Europeans, you still have to pay taxes in the US even if you live outside the US, but less than if you were home. Of course there may be local taxes, but depending on your contract and the country you work in, your company may pay that for you. The only way for US citizens not to pay US taxes at all is to give up their citizenship.

I work on the oil rigs, currently in Saudi Arabia, as a drilling engineer. I work equal time rotations, 4 weeks on, 4 weeks off (pretty much always have). I have never paid a single cent in taxes, and while I am not going to plaster on the forum how much I make, I can say it is "multiples" of 60k per year, even though I only work half of the time.

I will start off doing exactly this. Deposit online and play shit tons of hands at the micros with PT3. Do you recommend single tabling to learn range and game concepts better, or multitabling to see more hands?

Single tabling is horribly boring and slow except heads up (the only more boring thing I know is to play live full ring cash games in casinos). If you play 6max start with 2-3 tables. If you play FR start with 4-5. Some sites play faster than others (Full Tilt is noticeably faster than Party Poker for example).

[Savy]

2 tables of 6max trying to take note of everything that happens. Such as what your opponents are doing and what you think their thought process is and how you can adapt your game to make as much money off them as possible.

It also allows you to note your thought process as you are playing and reference it when you read about similar situations when looking at theory.

Would also work if you were going to play 6max sngs, same applies to full ring too but you can probably play another table or two and manage.

I assume that is a good plan anyway, I just whored 2nl FR zoom when I started.

[MadMojoMonkey]

One of the best human beings I know is a Saudi whom roomed with me senior year. He works for Aramco and they're paying him well, plus providing housing, car, meals, health and dental... more.

Jobs at Aramco

Check out any of the jobs called xxx Engineer.

@daviddem: Are you playing online poker in Saudi? I just assume any Muslim country has outlawed gambling, alcohol, etc. They're like freaking Mormons!


@back on topic.

Start with 3 tables. Scale it up when that gets boring. repeat.

I know you don't want to admit it, but setting monetary goals in poker is a surefire way to tilt yourself. You'll focus too much on small-samples and short term results. My advice is to always set goals that are directly under your control.

Examples of "good" goals (in my opinion)
Read xx books in yy time.
Play sessions of exactly xx length and slowly increase to yy length of playing solid, A-game poker.
Spend xx time going over hand histories
etc.

Each goal is something you can check off a list because you chose to do it. In poker, some days you can't win with your A-game, and some days your B- or C-game is plenty good enough to turn a profit. So as much as possible, remove your profit from your to-do list.

[spoonitnow]

If any moderator wants to ban the OP and save him from ruining his life, feel free to do so.

[daviddem]

One of the best human beings I know is a Saudi whom roomed with me senior year. He works for Aramco and they're paying him well, plus providing housing, car, meals, health and dental... more.

Jobs at Aramco

Check out any of the jobs called xxx Engineer.

@daviddem: Are you playing online poker in Saudi? I just assume any Muslim country has outlawed gambling, alcohol, etc. They're like freaking Mormons!

Yes they are retarded, everything is forbidden, women can't drive or go out unaccompanied by their husband or a brother, even cinemas are not allowed, can you believe it... I really don't care as I have to stay on my rig anyway, so it could be anywhere, it would not matter. Living there as an expat is a different story though, but if you are in Al Khobar you can escape to Bahrain or even Dubai on the weekends for more freedom.

I play from Saudi because my connection is an open satellite connection beyond the control of Saudi telecoms. Or when I am in town, I play through the vpn I installed on the router of my parents' home in Belgium...

[daviddem]

*deleted double post

[Stoic5]

Start with 3 tables. Scale it up when that gets boring. repeat.

I know you don't want to admit it, but setting monetary goals in poker is a surefire way to tilt yourself. You'll focus too much on small-samples and short term results. My advice is to always set goals that are directly under your control.

Examples of "good" goals (in my opinion)
Read xx books in yy time.
Play sessions of exactly xx length and slowly increase to yy length of playing solid, A-game poker.
Spend xx time going over hand histories
etc.

Each goal is something you can check off a list because you chose to do it. In poker, some days you can't win with your A-game, and some days your B- or C-game is plenty good enough to turn a profit. So as much as possible, remove your profit from your to-do list.

Thanks, I will be developing a set of goals like you have indicated, I'll post them here when I figure out the specifics!

Not only you're paid more, but you also get tax breaks and often benefits like housing and car allowance. As far as I know if you are US citizen, unlike most Europeans, you still have to pay taxes in the US even if you live outside the US, but less than if you were home. Of course there may be local taxes, but depending on your contract and the country you work in, your company may pay that for you. The only way for US citizens not to pay US taxes at all is to give up their citizenship.

I work on the oil rigs, currently in Saudi Arabia, as a drilling engineer. I work equal time rotations, 4 weeks on, 4 weeks off (pretty much always have). I have never paid a single cent in taxes, and while I am not going to plaster on the forum how much I make, I can say it is "multiples" of 60k per year, even though I only work half of the time.

Single tabling is horribly boring and slow except heads up (the only more boring thing I know is to play live full ring cash games in casinos). If you play 6max start with 2-3 tables. If you play FR start with 4-5. Some sites play faster than others (Full Tilt is noticeably faster than Party Poker for example).

Interesting. My #1 goal for online is to learn about the game and increase my skill. Will I be able to maximize things like paying attention to ranges, player types, history... basically enough information to be beneficial when multitabling?

From the general feedback I've been hearing, online poker seems to be a lot harder these days - whereas live is a lot softer. I'm leaning towards playing live primarily. so my primary goal for online right now is to best prepare myself for live play.

Engineering - If I end up having to go that route overseas is definitely what i'll do. I'm hoping for europe though, haha. wouldn't england be nice?

[Savy]

No, it's shit.

[daviddem]

^^lol

If you pay attention, doing 2 tables of 6 max at the same time is easy enough and you have plenty of time to think.

Live plays very differently, so online may not be the best prep. Besides, at 25-30 hands per hour live you're going to get bored to death, you're going to have to play far more hours and higher stakes than you would online and variance can kill you.

[donkbee]

If any moderator wants to ban the OP and save him from ruining his life, feel free to do so.

If it actually prevented him from going through with his awful idea, I would.

[donkbee]

OP, I respect your enthusiasm and love for the game, but you really should just listen to the people telling you not to try this. Use your degree, get a job.

Edit: and FWIW, at least a couple of the people in this thread that are telling you not to do this have played for a living in the past and/or play for a living now.

[Pelion]

http://www.flopturnriver.com/Newbie-...-Of-Death.html

How has no one linked this yet?

[Pascal]

As Sklansky said paraphrased, Not be the guy playing in the all-pro NLHold'em game while the drunken fish stud game is going on next table over.

This is a great example of "what not to do" if you want to become a poker pro with little experience, and is one of many pieces of advice which will send you in entirely the wrong direction as a new player. Trying to learn many games at micro stakes is going to really harm your hourly when compared with focusing all your attention at one game. It's not a problem when you're already playing high stakes NLHE but it'll complicate matters and slow your progress at micro stakes. Each game requires very different skills and knowledge and trying to learn all that at once will be confusing

[eugmac]

I for one hope you prove your doubters wrong and make it. Every great thing a single man has ever achieved started off as a stupid idea that everybody wrote off as ridiculous.

On the other hand, you're talking about playing a bloody card game instead of doing cool things with your engineering degree. If you feel underchallenged with your job prospects, it might be worth considering aiming higher, like starting your own business in the field of your expertise. Don't start thinking that you a choice between "a normal boring job" and an "exciting life as a pro poker player". Perhaps it will be the most rewarding for you for you to choose an exciting, challenging life that takes advantage of everything that you've worked for all your life, instead of starting something from scratch. Don't lose that drive though! Dream big, but dream super smart too, is what I'm trying to say.

[seven-deuce]

http://www.flopturnriver.com/Newbie-...-Of-Death.html

How has no one linked this yet?

I loled.

[MadMojoMonkey]

Edit: and FWIW, at least a couple of the people in this thread that are telling you not to do this have played for a living in the past and/or play for a living now.

At least one of them has sat at a table with Daniel Negranu and Phil Laak on her immediate left... and she's telling you what's up.

Check out FTR's own representing on The Big Game.

I for one hope you prove your doubters wrong and make it. Every great thing a single man has ever achieved started off as a stupid idea that everybody wrote off as ridiculous.

Well, I mean hell yeah. Go for the glory. Just don't "burn bridges" while you're at it.

Whenever you dream, whenever you make plans for the future, make 100% sure that they are BOTH awesome and practical. Awesome in the original sense of the word.

Just don't throw out the practical for the awesome. Get the job, and play the poker.... isn't that MORE awesome and MORE practical than throwing caution to the wind and taking a huge unnecessary risk.

[jyms]

FWIW, 10,000 people have registered and come through this site with the same dream. It's why people join forums to learn to get better. It's just not easy. I scrimped a living for 18 months doing this too, and would love to again, but it's not easy on the body, mind or love life when your grinding SSNL with dreams and no withdrawals because you want to move up first

[donkbee]

At least one of them has sat at a table with Daniel Negranu and Phil Laak on her immediate left... and she's telling you what's up.

Check out FTR's own representing on The Big Game.

Also read the comments, they are hilarious!

[MadMojoMonkey]

Wow. I've just ignored youtube comments for years now, but you made me look.

I'm glad you think they're hilarious, because I'm a little embarrassed to think you might have read some of them because I posted that today.... ah well... I guess I should've known that you would have a good sense of humor about youtube commentards.

[donkbee]

Wow. I've just ignored youtube comments for years now, but you made me look.

I'm glad you think they're hilarious, because I'm a little embarrassed to think you might have read some of them because I posted that today.... ah well... I guess I should've known that you would have a good sense of humor about youtube commentards.

At first when my shows first aired I felt butt hurt that everyone said I was the worst player in the world and the ugliest woman they've ever seen, but then I learned that they are all just idiots.

"stupid chink bitch go eat a chicken" - this is my favorite comment, I laugh so hard every time I see it. I have no idea what it means, but it's so funny.

[spoonitnow]

At first when my shows first aired I felt butt hurt that everyone said I was the worst player in the world and the ugliest woman they've ever seen, but then I learned that they are all just idiots.

"stupid chink bitch go eat a chicken" - this is my favorite comment, I laugh so hard every time I see it. I have no idea what it means, but it's so funny.

I figured the top comment of "I'd LOOSEN that TIGHT cannon up " would be your favorite.

[rpm]

haha i too went and looked at the comments out of curiosity. got my laughs from the very top of the list

[Luco]

Lol youtube. Good to see you take it in your stride

[Stoic5]

This is a great example of "what not to do" if you want to become a poker pro with little experience, and is one of many pieces of advice which will send you in entirely the wrong direction as a new player. Trying to learn many games at micro stakes is going to really harm your hourly when compared with focusing all your attention at one game. It's not a problem when you're already playing high stakes NLHE but it'll complicate matters and slow your progress at micro stakes. Each game requires very different skills and knowledge and trying to learn all that at once will be confusing

Thanks for the tip. I'm doing this goal live right now. The field is huge, 40+ $1/$2 tables on weekends, 15+ on weekdays. ~5 $2/$5 tables for when I move up. I've been specializing in NLHE 100%. Still in the process of plugging massive leaks in my game, but at least I can see them and I am gaining perspective. I am top 3 players at every $1/$2 table I've played at, #1 around half the time. Regs and Higher stakes players are easy to spot, and are typically helpful, willing to give me advice and talk strategy. The field is almost perfect to learn without going broke.