reverse implied odds?(s)

[littleogre]

How do i figure them and how do i use them in my game?

[euphoricism]

You dont really calculate them, you're just cognizant of them.

It's basically just a fancy way of saying "Even though I think I have the best hand right now, there are so many outs against me that i probably WONT by the river, and it'll cost me a lot of money to find out that I lost, so it'll be better overall to just fold now."


Think of a spot where theres 3 opponents and you have AT on a T98 board. Your reverse implied odds are pretty bad, a LOT of cards are bad for your hand -- any 6, 7, 8, 9, J, Q are likely to improve someone elses hand. Thats 18 outs, and thats assuming you're ahead in the first place. Folding here, even if you think youve got the best hand, is not a terrible move.

Put another way, its the ratio between the amount in the pot versus what it will cost you to play until the end of the hand.

The essential idea is that reverse implied odds should be considered when you are not certain you have the best hand. You think you have the best hand now, but it will cost more in future betting rounds to discover this.

Its more applicable in LHE than NL because you can raise enough in NL to price out draws, but it does come up once in a while.

[taipan168]

What eupho said. Not sure if you play cash or tourneys, but in tourneys you can have seriously bad reverse implied odds by playing marginal hands out of position when it costs you a lot of chips to find out you had the losing hand.

Here's an example. Early in a 1-table SNG, full table, stacks all around 1500, blinds 15/30, you're dealt A T UTG+1 and UTG folds. You decide to raise to 120, CO calls and the blinds fold. The pot at this stage is 275.

Flop comes A J 5. You bet 180 and CO calls. The pot is now 635.

Turn comes 5. You check, CO bets 200, you call. The pot is now 1035.

River comes 7. You check, CO bets 250 and you have to call getting better than 5:1 odds and he shows you AQo.

So, even though you only raised to 120 preflop it cost you another 630 chips even though you didn't play that badly postflop because you couldn't let go of the second best hand. A LOT of bad players would lose their whole stack in this spot.

[bigspenda73]

In the most simple definition I could think of:

A situation in which you will lose the most when you are behind and win the least when you are ahead.

[Robb]

Here's what I do when facing a bet. I'm on the button after the flop with air. The villain bets out. I imagine him calculating pot odds and then leaving me with just less than the odds I would need to call the bet. Then I try to narrow his range. Then, I either fold or raise intending to destroy those pot odds and drive out any draws (even with air, sometimes, depending upon my read).

This works well for me (level 2 thinking, playing the opponent's hand). I can usually get my money in good that way.

Reverse pot odds (ino) are just the regular pot odds my opponents are trying to earn on my bets/calls. If the guy seems to understand pot odds, I won't call his bets figuring his bets will lay odds in his favor.

[Fnord]

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $2 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

UTG ($338.90)
MP ($386.40)
CO ($284.55)
Button ($122.70)
SB ($311.45)
Hero ($213.45)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 7, K.
3 folds, Button calls $2, 1 fold, Hero checks.

Flop: ($5) 8, K, J (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets $4, Hero calls $4.

Turn: ($13) 2 (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets $10, Hero calls $10.

River: ($33) Q (2 players)
Hero bets $15, Button calls $15.

Final Pot: $63

Results in white below:
Hero has 7d Kd (one pair, kings).
Button has Ad Td (straight, ace high).
Outcome: Button wins $63.

[Mikefive]

A situation in which you will lose the most when you are behind and win the least when you are ahead.

Nice hehe

[bpurvis2]

here is the very simple defination of revese implied odds

It basically means that if you win the pot your will win a very small pot.

But if you lose that pot your gonna loss a hugh hugh one so your odds are reversed and your better off folding.

[binky bee]

I'm a complete beginner and struggling to get my head around this. I get the concept, more or less! The basic definition really helps on that front.

So now I need to learn how to see when these reverse implied odds are against me.

Is it is as simple as looking at the shared cards and working out how many combinations there are to get a hand that could (or would?) beat yours? If there are lots of ways the odds are bad?

[StarGrinder]

I'm a complete beginner and struggling to get my head around this. I get the concept, more or less! The basic definition really helps on that front.

So now I need to learn how to see when these reverse implied odds are against me.

Is it is as simple as looking at the shared cards and working out how many combinations there are to get a hand that could (or would?) beat yours? If there are lots of ways the odds are bad?

Some simple situations where you should be aware of reverse implied odds are when you're drawing to or have the idiot end of a straight, drawing to a straight with 3 to a flush or when you're drawing to or have a straight/flush on a paired board. There are others but this is the most basic of situations.

[binky bee]

Thanks StarGrinder.

It is tough following the advice because I have to look-up so many terms, but I will get there.

Having at least a starting point to watch out for on these reverse odd things is great. I will work on this in my next session.

I just love the term 'idiot end' now I know what it means! No more shall I covet any old straight for the sake of a straight!

[OngBonga]

I'm pretty sure you should be able to calculate reverse implied odds. Isn't it just a simple case of knowing how much of villain's range is beating you? Say you're chasing the K high heart flush, well how many Axhh does villain have in his range?
If villain has better flush than you 10% of the time when you make your hand, then you're going to lose your stack one in ten times, thus you need to account for that when calculating your implied odds.

[Chusko]

Considering the risk of being overwhelmed as a novice, I'd suggest putting reverse implied odds on the back burner for now. Start at the microest of microstakes and focus on things like hand selection and position first. Move into value betting and pot odds next. Then start thinking about Implied and reverse implied odds. If you take it all on at once you're just going to be very confused and frustrated. And for the love of Poker Jesus don't bluff at $4NL.

[supa]

I think of it more like this.

We have an A high flush draw and we know villains range is only sets. Villain has reverse implied odds in that some of our flush outs complete his boat.

[kickass]

I think of it more like this.

We have an A high flush draw and we know villains range is only sets. Villain has reverse implied odds in that some of our flush outs complete his boat.

vilain doesnt have reverse implied odds we do.

[d0zer]

I think of it more like this.

We have an A high flush draw and we know villains range is only sets. Villain has reverse implied odds in that some of our flush outs complete his boat.

Do you mean hero has reverse implied odds? The problem with your example is that hero still has a bunch of true nut outs, only a few of his outs are tainted so it's not a typical reverse-implied odds situation.

The classic examples of reverse-implied odds are chasing a FD with the on a or chasing a straight with on or simply overvaluing hands like or

[binky bee]

Considering the risk of being overwhelmed as a novice, I'd suggest putting reverse implied odds on the back burner for now. Start at the microest of microstakes and focus on things like hand selection and position first. Move into value betting and pot odds next. Then start thinking about Implied and reverse implied odds. If you take it all on at once you're just going to be very confused and frustrated. And for the love of Poker Jesus don't bluff at $4NL.

Thanks for your thoughts, Chusko.

I am currently playing $0.01/$0.02 NL on PokerStars. And I have started working through the sticky; LEARNING STARTS HERE.

My goodness, there is some thought provoking stuff in there!

I shall certainly be following your advice, but I am grateful to StarGrinder - at least implied reverse odds is a concept I am aware of in play. Even if I do put it on the back burner, I can only be a better player for just having that thought in the back of my mind that this guy has more ways of getting a good hand than I do.

[StarGrinder]

Binky I want to milk your avatar.

[binky bee]

Binky I want to milk your avatar.

[supa]

Maybe I'm completely confused.

Let's say we're effectively 250bbs deep. We have a flush draw, villain has a set. We know villain's gonna stack off if we hit so we have some implied odds. Villain has some reverse implied odds because he has redraws.

[supa]

Never mind. Didn't realize this was an old thread. I'll just read it.

[Chusko]

Thanks for your thoughts, Chusko.

I am currently playing $0.01/$0.02 NL on PokerStars. And I have started working through the sticky; LEARNING STARTS HERE.

My goodness, there is some thought provoking stuff in there!

I shall certainly be following your advice, but I am grateful to StarGrinder - at least implied reverse odds is a concept I am aware of in play. Even if I do put it on the back burner, I can only be a better player for just having that thought in the back of my mind that this guy has more ways of getting a good hand than I do.

That's a reasonable approach. Thinking "I have a good but vulnerable hand" is itself a step above most of your opponents. I'm just saying that you shouldn't be focusing on trying to run calculations in your head involving RIO at this stage.

Good luck in your studies. I've been reading through those forums for a few months now and my game has improved dramatically.

[Icanhastreebet]

That's a reasonable approach. Thinking "I have a good but vulnerable hand" is itself a step above most of your opponents. I'm just saying that you shouldn't be focusing on trying to run calculations in your head involving RIO at this stage.

Good luck in your studies. I've been reading through those forums for a few months now and my game has improved dramatically.

It's not that difficult to be like hey I have a 3 high flush draw and I'm going to get stacked every time we both have a flush or hey I have A5o but am going to lose a couple bets every time the flop is A high.

[Chusko]

It's not that difficult to be like hey I have a 3 high flush draw and I'm going to get stacked every time we both have a flush or hey I have A5o but am going to lose a couple bets every time the flop is A high.

Thanks for rephrasing the quote?

What I mean by not focusing on RIO is to not study the mathematics behind it. There are more efficient ways to improve a novice's game like consciously thinking about position and letting RIO remain a passive thought.