25nl: AJ vs a 3bet BB vs BTN

[clvacva]

Opponent was like 22/19 something like that. It was quite a while where I was opening all my buttons the blinds where folding a lot. Then the BB starts 3betting me. This is the 4time villain is 3betting within 30ish hands. All BTN vs BB.

Ok so I can fairly assume he is 3betting with a wider range something like 77+,ATs+,KJs+,QJs,JTs,ATo+,KJo+,QJo.

First Questions. CALL or 4bet. If I 4bet then I think I make it harder for me because his range is going to narrow to AQ/AK 99-JJ.


Anyways I call. Low flop which I think villain is going to cbet his entire range on.

Whats the best move call,raise,fold?

If we call are we folding to a turn double barrel? Will we fire every turn card if opponent checks the turn?

If we raise how much and what to do if called? Do we fire all turn cards or check back the turn?

If we fold then should I have 4bet pre? Trying to use ABCD and I think it would be
A) TT+ AQ/AK 4bet get it in
B)AQ,AJ,AT,KQ,QJ,KJ 77-99 etc hand we can call
C) 22-55 78s etc hand we can 4bet as bluffs but have some value.
D) trash wit little to no value
Sometimes 25nl is like so easy then I get those 3betting/4betting spots were people are defending so light I gets confused....

THE HAND
$0.1/$0.25 No Limit Holdem
6 Players
Hand Conversion Powered by weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG schem11 ($24.45)
UTG+1 stuman_ottiz ($26)
CO qq goes pro ($42.75)
BTN Hero ($25.35)
SB Housecopter ($47.20)
BB The_LateShow ($30.65)

Pre-Flop: ($0.35, 6 players) Hero is BTN
3 folds, Hero raises to $0.75, 1 fold, The_LateShow raises to $2.50, Hero calls $1.75

Flop: ($5.10, 2 players)
The_LateShow bets $3, $3 to Hero ($22.85)?

[Micro2Macro]

If your image is really clean/tight etc. and you feel he's 3betting you lightly you might be better off 4-bet bluffing here. (It may be higher EV than calling and playing postflop)

If you 4bet its easy, just fold to a shove. You'll get tons of respect if you have the right image/do it with proper frequency. Another advantage to 4betting is you're more likely to have him ease up his 3betting frequency. If you just call and he pwns you postflop, he's not going to let up, and at that point your image will be pretty bad/weak and you might just have to leave the table.

[Micro2Macro]

I also disagree with you relating 4betting here to ABCD theorem but I'm tired as hell and can't explain why I think that. I'll check thread tomorrow.

[clvacva]

lol I'm tired too so Im just typing out of my ass...

I did not think about him slowing down on the 3betting if I 4bet.

and I did leave right after this hand

[FlopIt2Me]

This seems like a real tough spot to me given the previous action and your read on him.
In this spot I would either 4-bet or fold. You said he was folding to your BTN raises earlier and then he started playing back at you. So, it looks like he adjusted. He could have a big pair though as always, and a 4-bet is a good way to find out. I would just 4-bet to about $9.50 or so and try to take down the pot preflop. If he calls then I'd shut down unless I nail the flop. Unless you have a feeling he is really strong. In that case I fold.

Another big reason I'd 4-bet or fold is because if you just call his 3-bet you have to shut down on the flop unless you nail it. Even if you hit your Ace you have to worry about AK & AQ. You said that u think he's c-betting his entire range, so you won't know where you stand on the flop in a big pot. So, this is why I think calling is the worst option.

You said u think 4-betting is worse for you , but it actually makes your next decision easier.

Unless I think he is just trying to play back at me I would probably lean more toward folding with AJo. I'd probably only continue with AK, TT+. If I think he is just making a move I'd 4-bet with KJo+, 22+.

When in doubt you should usually fold, then post in the forum, instead of not knowing what to do and spewing off money.

[surviva316]

seems like you need some practice with 3b'ing/4b'ing ranges in reg wars. if he's 3b'ing light, his range is much more likely to be TT+, AQ+, ATs+, KQ and all kinds of suited garbage

also, 4b'ing as a bluff should come much more down to situation than it should what hand you actually hold. 87s is probably better for flatting while A2o is definitely better for 4b'ing as a bluff. blockers are the biggest thing when 4b bluffing, especially at 25nl where postflop playability counts for next to nothing (because villain is going to play shove or fold with like everything).

i think 4b'ing as a bluff might be better here because we know for pretty well certain that it's +EV, whereas flatting is gonna take very solid play from us (which is tough to do without a whole lot of experience in these spots and without any postflop reads on villain in 3b pots) for it to be +EV.

as played, i really wanna play back at him. i think floating is our best bet. fold to a barrel on any non face card, obv continue on any J or A if he barrels and we're in a tough spot on a K or Q, but i much prefer still folding to another barrel rather than spewing our stack away.

[clvacva]

9.50 isn't that a massive 4bet?

Why is 87s better for flatting?

[clvacva]

Also If I 4bet with the intention to fold to a shove cuz his shoving range is TT+ AK then I should do the 4bet with ATC.

so why waste it with AJ when I can call and be ahead of his range and have position. Then he will cbet any flop and I can spew post and see what happens.

I also don't know his 3bet/4bet tendencies what if he shoves JTs then I am making a bad fold by 4betting and folding to the all in.

Rather do this with crap than AJ.

Although it will be my first 4bet he would give me an incredible amount of credit............unless he thinks I just adjusted and he is going to 5bet shove KQ lol

I do need some help with these 3bet/4bet spots.

[WillburForce]

this is quite a standard play by a reg at $25nl. Everyone knows that BTN is opening a wide range, so he wants to protect his blind. This is the fourth time he's done this in 30 hands???

You have A-J (but it really doesn't matter what you have). 4bet him to $9ish. He'll find it very hard to continue with the majority of his range.

If not, he's gonna keep re-rasing your BTN - I know I would.

as played, i guess float this flop, see what he does on turn. Obv continue if A or J drops. Maybe nit it up and fold to a 2nd barrel, though if I was feeling tricky and really thought the guy was doing it light, we could re-raise the turn whatever drops.

[Parasurama]

If we flat preflop I think floating flop and folding non-AJ turns to another barrel is mandatory.

If we're likely to get respect I think a 4b/f is better. But we're not likely to get respect, so I don't really see what's wrong with a 4b/c. This seems like the right dynamic with the right opponent (and good odds) where calling it off is okay.

Just an interesting thought question, how do you play KK on the flop?

[FlopIt2Me]

Just an interesting thought question, how do you play KK on the flop?

As with any other hand the answer is : It depends.

What happened preflop? Are you in position or out of position? What type of players are in the pot? What is their history with you? What is your table image like? What is the flop texture like? etc.

This kind of information is necessary to determine the optimal way to play KK on the flop. But, in general, especially at small stakes if u feel u have the best hand bet, bet, bet!

[Parasurama]

Just an interesting thought question, how do you play KK on the flop?

As with any other hand the answer is : It depends.

What happened preflop? Are you in position or out of position? What type of players are in the pot? What is their history with you? What is your table image like? What is the flop texture like? etc.

This kind of information is necessary to determine the optimal way to play KK on the flop. But, in general, especially at small stakes if u feel u have the best hand bet, bet, bet!

I meant how do you play if the action was exactly the same as the posted hand but you hold KK.

[clvacva]

If I had KK I guess I would call the flop so he can bluff the turn and raise it up. If he checks the turn then I would bet it myself.

[d0zer]

I think calling & playing postflop is fine if you have some idea how he's gunna play postflop. Like if you expect him to stab once & give up then a float & a turn bet is good, or fold to a 2nd barrel.

If he's gunna be firing two as a bluff then I don't like the call pre cuz yer gunna be put in really tough spots & floating is far less profitable.

4betting to $9 is way too massive, $6.50 is more than big enough. We're turning our hand into a bluff, but we do have blockers to a bunch of his shove over hands so I don't mind a 4/b fold, but I think we should be basing the call or 4bet decision on how much we think we can own him postflop IP.

[clvacva]

So 4bet/fold pre is probably best. Also like d0zer said calling and floating has some merit if we play him post.

Well this is what i did on the flop.
$0.1/$0.25 No Limit Holdem
6 Players
Hand Conversion Powered by weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG schem11 ($24.45)
UTG+1 stuman_ottiz ($26)
CO qq goes pro ($42.75)
BTN Hero ($25.35)
SB Housecopter ($47.20)
BB The_LateShow ($30.65)

Pre-Flop: ($0.35, 6 players) Hero is BTN
3 folds, Hero raises to $0.75, 1 fold, The_LateShow raises to $2.50, Hero calls $1.75

Flop: ($5.10, 2 players)
The_LateShow bets $3, Hero raises to $7.25, The_LateShow calls $4.25

Turn: ($19.60, 2 players)
The_LateShow checks, Hero ($15.6)?

To be honest I kind of raised for no reason. I just told my self '' He probably missed only hands he might call here are 77,66,55,89,78, weakish flush . I think all the other hands sets,over pairs,draws would just 3bet the flop and air folds.

Turn range 77,66,55,99,89,78, weak flush. So I shove.
Ok villain probably does not play 44,88,33,TT+AsXs or even KsXx like this by b/c the flop. So when he calls the flop and checks the turn I think he is trying to
1)get a free card like for his 9T of spades or whatever
2) get to a cheap showdown with a pair of 8 or 77,55.

So I put his range at containing a lot of weak hands because of his b/c check line so I go all in cuz I am obv repping 88.

Thoughts?

[Robb]

Bluffs have more fold equity earlier in the hand, which is why lots of guys are saying 4b pre. You've already "bluff raised" on the flop and gotten called. What's this guy continuing with? I think you might be overestimating your fold equity on this turn.

[clvacva]

Well he folded so I must have had some fold equity

Really what the hell b/c and c/f this board texture?
like 77,55 or he called with 2overs on the flop?

[dranger7070]

Villain probably has a lot of nut or 2nd nfd's, but he might be too passive to 3bet/get his draw in on the flop. and by the turn when you shove, his equity is halved, so he is kind of forced into a fold here.

Keep it simple for yourself 4bet or fold PF next time lolz.

[bigspenda73]

$9 is a really bad 4bet size, $5.50-$6.50 looks good. I say $9 is bad b/c I assume most are 4bet/folding with $9, which is going to be incorrect due to pot-odds, but also constantly committing yourself w/ hands like AJo is going to lead to losing quite a bit in the equity battle. Edit, running some EV math it seems it's really close, but $9 carries as much FE as $7, which is clearly going to be a more optimal size than $9.

my standard 4bet sizing

In Position -- I take the amount that was raised (not the total) which in this case is $2.50-$.75 = $1.75 and multiply it by 2, then add that to the total raise size. So $2.50 + $3.50 ($1.75*2) = $6. This allows for a decent amount of FE when 4bet bluffing as well as 2 streets of postflop play in 4bet pots ($12 pot on flop, $19 eff. stacks, could bet $5 on flop and jam turn, etc...).

Out of Position -- I'm not a huge fan of 4betting small OOP, I'll generally do so if I've seen my opponents fold to 4bets when IP, but typically I'm jamming/calling/folding PF. However, in this case where we opened to 3x and a competent opponent let's say 3x'ed our raise to $2.25, then I'd be more inclined to 4bet small. However, what typically happens is we make it $1 from UTG/MP, someone is LP makes it like 3.5/4x our amount to $3.50/$4.00 and there's little option but to 4bet jam or fold.

[Robb]

Well he folded so I must have had some fold equity

Really what the hell b/c and c/f this board texture?
like 77,55 or he called with 2overs on the flop?

I don't see why we've eliminated 99-AA from his range. He 3bet pre, bet the flop and called a reasonably sized raise.

[cleanup.that]

I dont like to take a flop with AJ in a 3 bet pot. I think its not a spot where you are going to profit a whole lot. 4bet pre or fold