Interesting Conversation With Dranger

[Micro2Macro]

We've been discussing this hand here: http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...eg-t83120.html
This is probably all half retarded and doesn't make sense but whatever, I decided to post this to see what other's thoughts were.

Dranger: thinking about it (still lol) c/r is best line imo
Dranger: cuz u KNOW he c-bets all his range

Micro: yo put that as a repsonse

Dranger: so u get value out of his bluffs

Micro: see if we can initiate some sort of discussion

Dranger: and you are still able to ship it imo

Micro: hopefully stax or someone can step in

Dranger: or even let it go if you REALLY felt weird about the hand i guess

Micro: haha yeah we never talked about folding

Dranger: cuz raising a c/r is pretty ballsy

Micro: LOL
Micro: yeah who the fuck raises a c/r?[/b] {at this level, being microstakes}

Dranger: lol

Micro: woah...wait a minute

Dranger: a badass thats who

Micro: what the hell would you raise a c/r with?

Dranger:

Micro: like if you got the nuts, you can just call and let villain spew the turn....{assuming we're ahead and expect villain to bet any turn}
Micro: its gotta be rare that anyone ever raises the nuts in this case
Micro: unless the board is like 3flush and you have top set

Dranger: hmm
Dranger: yea
Dranger: omg that reminds me i get set over setted last night lol
Dranger: anyways go on
Dranger: lul

Micro: like..if UTG , a TAG, opens for 4x, and we call with JJ on the button, get heads up, see a flop of J92 (the 2 can be like 3, 4 or whatever its a total brick)
Micro: he checks, we bet 2/3 the pot, he c/r's 3-4x
Micro: what does he have?
Micro: his range is so narrow, that raising the nuts here is fucked
Micro: like AA/KK/maybe QQ, and 99/22 {though we can probably even disregard 22}

Dranger: yea
Dranger: i would never raise that

Micro: board has no flush draws, and it's super unlikely he has QT
Micro: okay even if there was a flush draw

Dranger: yea who c/r a straight draw?
Dranger: lol
Dranger: if theres a flush draw?

Micro: exactly

Dranger: id raise

Micro: ok yeah, if there's a flush draw - if he has it, its probably the nut flush draw

Dranger: i would raise his gay ass c/r all day lol

Micro: so he's going to c-bet
Micro: but if he c/r's the flop with a flush draw from his UTG open..ok i doubt he has a flush draw often when he c/r's
Micro: it just seems standard for a tag to c-bet here, although we cant say he never c/r's the draw {but he's probably check-raising the nut flush draw less often than he's c-betting it}

Dranger: yea unless its like AKs

Micro: yeah

Dranger: but id never c/r with that

Micro: but again, if he c/r's, we can discount the draw out of his range a bit
Micro: and just flat the nuts again

Dranger: unless i knew that i was gonna bluff at the pot after he checks

Micro: yeah
Micro: i know this theory needs more proof and its probably very situational. but in general: When you c/r and get re-raised, you're likely not looking at the nuts {we went over the exceptions above}

Dranger: raising a c/r with the nuts is probly dumb as shit lol {in the case described}
Dranger: yea lol

Micro: exactly

Dranger: but wtf who does raise a c/r?

Micro: like 90% of the time you're never seeing the best hand {yah I just pulled that number out of my ass}

Dranger: im gonna make a thread in the bc
Dranger: lol
Dranger: titled: What do you raise a c/r with?

Micro: I dunno because, tbh, i don't think i've ever raised one here except against a lag-tard on a really drawy board {against an EP TAG opener, his range is less likely to consist of draws if he's opening mainly pairs and only a few broadways (AK/AQ)}

Dranger: and thats it

Micro: like a set on a wet flop

Dranger: exactly

Micro: but yeah that's basically the only time

Dranger: im just curious to see what sort of responses i get

Micro: if the flop is dry - and you c/r, then get raised, you're villain likely has a bluffy range
Micro: assuming he knows at least something about poker

Dranger: lol yea

Micro: a dumbass might just do it because they're a lag tard

Dranger: hahaha

Micro: you should just post our conversation and see how badly it gets berated. maybe we'll learn something


So I decided to post it. Now berate so we can all learn something. The fictional player we related to was a standard tight/aggressive player, who doesn't get too tricky. Afterall, this is microstakes. We're making general assumptions here of course. For example, if a player is liberally c/r'ing you, an adjustment would either be stop betting as much, or raise back.

[Stacks]

http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...sh-t83160.html

[dranger7070]

lol wow I suck. Pretty much I only contributed 1st line of this after the reread Hey, at least I got the ball rolling right

[dev]

Playing live against agro opponents, I check as a default action when I'm first to act HU. I almost never lead out whether I raised pre or not. It's like checking blind, but I do actually make exceptions based on board texture. A lot of the hands I would otherwise be leading with become c/raises. A few decent players decided to play raise or fold against me in that spot, because I could lead with an AI on the turn if they called.

[dev]

Basically take stack sizes into account.

[Micro2Macro]

Basically take stack sizes into account.

Yeah this is really key. Short-stackers shove over c/r's all day.

[Erpel]

I could be wrong, but you could just have discovered the yeti theorem.

[Luco]

This is interesting, I was in a very similar situation last week against an otherwise competent TAG who was winning a lot of pots on the flop with 2-3x re-raises, and flat calling a lot of pre-flop raises under the 10/20 rule.

I raised from MP2 with KQo and he flat called on the button. Flop comes AKx rainbow (Don't have my HH on this machine) and I fire off 2/3 pot. He insta re-raised me 3x my bet, and it was probably his dumbest play of the night. Every hand in his range that could feasibly have hit that flop would have been a monster (or AK 2 pair at worst). Therefore I was ahead and re-raised him again. He (intentionally?) disconnected giving him an insta AI and turned over QQ.

Just goes to show.

[Micro2Macro]

I could be wrong, but you could just have discovered the yeti theorem.

haha, I just looked that up and it's too bad this guy was born first.
Why's it called 'Yeti' theorem?

I also didn't think about paired boards at first, but rather any dry flop. So I think the Yeti theorem could probably apply to flops like J72r etc. as well depending on the circumstances. It mentioned only flops like 552 or 744.

[Sir Pawnalot]

I believe the yeti theorem is whack. It is late and I do not want to make an argument of why.

Basically, a check-raise looks so strong that people with trips/sets/two pairs might 3-bet because they are afraid of high cards ruining the action on turn/river for hands like JJ, QQ and KK.

4-bet bluffing because of yeti theorem seems silly to me.

[Fnord]

Playing live against agro opponents, I check as a default action when I'm first to act HU. I almost never lead out whether I raised pre or not.

On certain boards you have a wildly profitable bluff. I do agree with check/folding air out of position on boards that didn't likely hit you against an opponent who's going to be sticky and put you on big cards every time.

[mgn465]

sad stuff :P

[Micro2Macro]

sad stuff :P

what the fuck.
let's just reply to every single thread regardless of what we have to say.