Interesting Conversation With Dranger

We've been discussing this hand here: http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...eg-t83120.html
This is probably all half retarded and doesn't make sense but whatever, I decided to post this to see what other's thoughts were.

Dranger: thinking about it (still lol) c/r is best line imo
Dranger: cuz u KNOW he c-bets all his range

Micro: yo put that as a repsonse

Dranger: so u get value out of his bluffs

Micro: see if we can initiate some sort of discussion

Dranger: and you are still able to ship it imo

Micro: hopefully stax or someone can step in

Dranger: or even let it go if you REALLY felt weird about the hand i guess

Micro: haha yeah we never talked about folding

Dranger: cuz raising a c/r is pretty ballsy

Micro: LOL
Micro: yeah who the fuck raises a c/r?[/b] {at this level, being microstakes}

Dranger: lol

Micro: woah...wait a minute

Dranger: a badass thats who

Micro: what the hell would you raise a c/r with?

Dranger:

Micro: like if you got the nuts, you can just call and let villain spew the turn....{assuming we're ahead and expect villain to bet any turn}
Micro: its gotta be rare that anyone ever raises the nuts in this case
Micro: unless the board is like 3flush and you have top set

Dranger: hmm
Dranger: yea
Dranger: omg that reminds me i get set over setted last night lol
Dranger: anyways go on
Dranger: lul

Micro: like..if UTG , a TAG, opens for 4x, and we call with JJ on the button, get heads up, see a flop of J92 (the 2 can be like 3, 4 or whatever its a total brick)
Micro: he checks, we bet 2/3 the pot, he c/r's 3-4x
Micro: what does he have?
Micro: his range is so narrow, that raising the nuts here is fucked
Micro: like AA/KK/maybe QQ, and 99/22 {though we can probably even disregard 22}

Dranger: yea
Dranger: i would never raise that

Micro: board has no flush draws, and it's super unlikely he has QT
Micro: okay even if there was a flush draw

Dranger: yea who c/r a straight draw?
Dranger: lol
Dranger: if theres a flush draw?

Micro: exactly

Dranger: id raise

Micro: ok yeah, if there's a flush draw - if he has it, its probably the nut flush draw

Dranger: i would raise his gay ass c/r all day lol

Micro: so he's going to c-bet
Micro: but if he c/r's the flop with a flush draw from his UTG open..ok i doubt he has a flush draw often when he c/r's
Micro: it just seems standard for a tag to c-bet here, although we cant say he never c/r's the draw {but he's probably check-raising the nut flush draw less often than he's c-betting it}

Dranger: yea unless its like AKs

Micro: yeah

Dranger: but id never c/r with that

Micro: but again, if he c/r's, we can discount the draw out of his range a bit
Micro: and just flat the nuts again

Dranger: unless i knew that i was gonna bluff at the pot after he checks

Micro: yeah
Micro: i know this theory needs more proof and its probably very situational. but in general: When you c/r and get re-raised, you're likely not looking at the nuts {we went over the exceptions above}

Dranger: raising a c/r with the nuts is probly dumb as shit lol {in the case described}
Dranger: yea lol

Micro: exactly

Dranger: but wtf who does raise a c/r?

Micro: like 90% of the time you're never seeing the best hand {yah I just pulled that number out of my ass}

Dranger: im gonna make a thread in the bc
Dranger: lol
Dranger: titled: What do you raise a c/r with?

Micro: I dunno because, tbh, i don't think i've ever raised one here except against a lag-tard on a really drawy board {against an EP TAG opener, his range is less likely to consist of draws if he's opening mainly pairs and only a few broadways (AK/AQ)}

Dranger: and thats it

Micro: like a set on a wet flop

Dranger: exactly

Micro: but yeah that's basically the only time

Dranger: im just curious to see what sort of responses i get

Micro: if the flop is dry - and you c/r, then get raised, you're villain likely has a bluffy range
Micro: assuming he knows at least something about poker

Dranger: lol yea

Micro: a dumbass might just do it because they're a lag tard

Dranger: hahaha

Micro: you should just post our conversation and see how badly it gets berated. maybe we'll learn something


So I decided to post it. Now berate so we can all learn something. The fictional player we related to was a standard tight/aggressive player, who doesn't get too tricky. Afterall, this is microstakes. We're making general assumptions here of course. For example, if a player is liberally c/r'ing you, an adjustment would either be stop betting as much, or raise back.

http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...sh-t83160.html

lol wow I suck. Pretty much I only contributed 1st line of this after the reread Hey, at least I got the ball rolling right

Playing live against agro opponents, I check as a default action when I'm first to act HU. I almost never lead out whether I raised pre or not. It's like checking blind, but I do actually make exceptions based on board texture. A lot of the hands I would otherwise be leading with become c/raises. A few decent players decided to play raise or fold against me in that spot, because I could lead with an AI on the turn if they called.

Basically take stack sizes into account.

Originally Posted by dev

Basically take stack sizes into account.

Yeah this is really key. Short-stackers shove over c/r's all day.

I could be wrong, but you could just have discovered the yeti theorem.

This is interesting, I was in a very similar situation last week against an otherwise competent TAG who was winning a lot of pots on the flop with 2-3x re-raises, and flat calling a lot of pre-flop raises under the 10/20 rule.

I raised from MP2 with KQo and he flat called on the button. Flop comes AKx rainbow (Don't have my HH on this machine) and I fire off 2/3 pot. He insta re-raised me 3x my bet, and it was probably his dumbest play of the night. Every hand in his range that could feasibly have hit that flop would have been a monster (or AK 2 pair at worst). Therefore I was ahead and re-raised him again. He (intentionally?) disconnected giving him an insta AI and turned over QQ.

Just goes to show.

Originally Posted by Erpel

I could be wrong, but you could just have discovered the yeti theorem.

haha, I just looked that up and it's too bad this guy was born first.
Why's it called 'Yeti' theorem?

I also didn't think about paired boards at first, but rather any dry flop. So I think the Yeti theorem could probably apply to flops like J72r etc. as well depending on the circumstances. It mentioned only flops like 552 or 744.

I believe the yeti theorem is whack. It is late and I do not want to make an argument of why.

Basically, a check-raise looks so strong that people with trips/sets/two pairs might 3-bet because they are afraid of high cards ruining the action on turn/river for hands like JJ, QQ and KK.

4-bet bluffing because of yeti theorem seems silly to me.

Originally Posted by dev

Playing live against agro opponents, I check as a default action when I'm first to act HU. I almost never lead out whether I raised pre or not.

On certain boards you have a wildly profitable bluff. I do agree with check/folding air out of position on boards that didn't likely hit you against an opponent who's going to be sticky and put you on big cards every time.

sad stuff :P

Originally Posted by mgn465

sad stuff :P

what the fuck.
let's just reply to every single thread regardless of what we have to say.