3betting Smarter

[Robb]

Edit: this HH wasn't smart - it prompted me to think about being smarter.

Earlier today, I posted about 3betting JJ/TT and spenda and BJaust basically said "think about this, Robb." And I did. Here's a HH that came up in my session. Villain is 12/9 and agro over 1k hands, but he's been 3bet 9 times. He's folded 6, called 2 and raised 1.

$0.25/$0.5 Deep No Limit Holdem
9 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG ($50.00)
UTG 1 ($50.75)
MP1 ($30.90)
MP2 ($110.15)
MP3 ($61.70)
CO ($51.20)
Hero (BTN) ($57.45)
SB ($45.75)
BB ($112.50)

Pre-flop: ($0.75, 9 players) Hero is BTN
UTG raises to $2, 5 folds, Hero raises to $6.75


All right, K2o is hopeless against his range, but he's a nit. So we can 3bet him light. We risk $6.75 for a chance to win his $2 plus $.75 blinds. That's 27 to 11, or just better than 2.5 to 1. So we need fold equity of 2.5 / (1 + 2.5) = .71.

So I learned a couple of things by analyzing the hand. First, I can "price myself in" with a slightly smaller 3bet size, say $6.00. Second, as played, I've gotta be able to take down about 5% of hands postflop, but I'll get to postflop against the top 10% of his PFR, or only against the top 1 - 1.5% of all NLHE hands. We do have position and initiative, but committing any more chips to this pot is going to be dicey in the extreme unless we flop gin.

This is a better play if we choose hands to 3bet light that aren't quite so hopeless: sc's or Axs might be better choices. We'll need to pick up the occasional hand postflop to make this +EV, so we need SOME value to 3bet light here.

With JJ/TT, 3betting is DEAD WRONG. We should cold call. His UTG range of 8% is likely AJ+, KQ and 88+ and then maybe a couple suited broadways or 66/77. Hmm...PokerStove says we've got 50% equity against that range (52% if he raises the 77/66 type hands instead of broadways). A call is correct here if we think we can outplay him postflop. With position, that's probably true because he's a weak-tight player who has learned to cbet.

This guy has a flop aggression percentage of 50% and cbets 80%. But he only bets the turn 33% after a flop cbet and call. I always have trouble figuring out what to do with cold call here with JJ/TT type hands. So let's consider a few flops (other than 9-high, where I'd know what to do :P ):

1. A94 rainbow
2. KQ9 two-suited
3. Q42 rainbow

Typical WA/WB situation (where I'm typically lost). Against a cbet on all three flops, I think we call one street and see if he'll check the turn. If he does on 1 and 3, and the turn's a blank, we probably call the river. On flop 2, we have some value. We probably try to call a small cbet and hope to improve. Not all 6 outs may be live, though.

Against a check, I think we check behind flops 1 and 2, and bet flop 3 ourselves. Obviously, if we improve on flop 2 or spike our set on any of them, we bet the turn, or call his turn bet looking to get it all-in on the river most times.

On the turn, if he follows up a cbet with another value-looking bet, it's time to ditch. This isn't a guy who 2barrels much. If he checks a second time, we're facing a polarized range with a tiny bit of set or better hands and a bunch of air. Probably time to bet for value, depending upon board. Definitely w/ flops 2 and 3, imo.

Summary is that we'd like to take the initiative on the turn and get some chips in when it appears we're ahead, and otherwise play pot control and call at least one street and possibly two in some situations.

That's about all I can of. Other than the high "folds to 3bet stat," a PFR around 9 or 10 is pretty typical in my FR 50nl games on Full Tilt. I think I'll start working on taking a look at flop/turn stats before a 3bet/flat decision, and use these ideas to try to find the best line.

I would be interested to hear anyone's thoughts, especially Spenda or BJ since they started me thinking about it.

[Parasurama]

Sorry, what do you mean by pricing yourself in?

[bigspenda73]

3betting smarter

Villain is 12/9

UTG raises to $2

Pre-flop: ($0.75, 9 players) Hero is BTN

Hero raises to $6.75

[Revolver123]

I found this post very helpful. I analyzed my hands from tonight's session and even though I finished down a little over two buyins due to bad beats or extremely bad play (lost almost 3 buyins on 2 AA hands and a buyin and a half on QQ vs KK twice) I did notice that I'm negative with JJ and TT, which I think I should be positive with.

I'm going to try some of your lines with these hands and see if I can improve them.

On a side note, I'm also very negative with AQo and AQs. I need to think about how to play this hand a little better. I'm beginning to feel it's overrated.. all of my losses with AQ are against a preflop raiser to me, and I either 3 bet it with AQs or cold call with AQo.. think I may ditch AQo and maybe just call with AQs, depending on the villain of course.

[bjsaust]

Sometimes its ok to see a flop and take things carefully.

[bigspenda73]

In all seriousness this thread made me think of this one:

http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...ez-t50924.html

maybe you're the next million dollar man!

[OhBollocks]

3betting smarter

Villain is 12/9

UTG raises to $2

Pre-flop: ($0.75, 9 players) Hero is BTN

Hero raises to $6.75

Lol, this.

When did it become a good idea to 3bet a tight UTG raise with junk?

[Muzzard]

3betting smarter? lol robb.

He's UTG, he's a nit, we going to own ourself a large % of the time 3betting K2o, which has little to no equity vs his calling range.

[Robb]

LoL!! I sure pwn'd myself with that title, didn't I? Funny stuff, spenda.

Here's the thing, it's seem like no one the read the post. Sorry it was so long. I didn't say this was a good idea - I said it got me thinking. I did some math, and wrote some learning points:

1. If I bet $6, I'm closer to getting the right odds against his "fold to cbet%".
2. I need to choose hands with SOME equity postflop against his range or this is -EV.
3. I thought about what hands to call for value and which ones to 3bet light.

Sorry if the original post masked those points. But the hand got me thinking. About how to play JJ/TT for value by calling here. About what ranges he has to have when he calls/raises a 3bet. And what lines we could take against a nit if we flatted a JJ/TT type hand here against this villain.

I've thought about better hands to 3bet light with here and mentioned them in the OP. Be interested to know what type of hands you would call with and 3bet with.

Reminder: villain is 12/9 TAGG w/ 80% cbet and 67% folds to 3bet.

[Robb]

He's UTG, he's a nit, we going to own ourself a large % of the time 3betting K2o, which has little to no equity vs his calling range.

I agreed this was the wrong hand to 3bet with in OP because "it's hopeless postflop."

But his position stats were PFR = 8%, and he folds 67% to 3bets. At what point could (not should) you 3bet any two cards? Well, in this scenario, if we knew he folded about 75% of his UTG PFR to a 3bet. We'd be +EV 3betting 72o and folding/not continuing with anything else.

Not saying we should. We need a hand we can continue with some of the time postflop, and I said so. But at some point we have enough hands (and I do on a bunch of FT 50nl nits) who have a fairly wide PFR and autofold most of it to 3bets. I think these are candidates for 3betting light. Now I just need to fix up my 3betting light range.

[Muzzard]

He's UTG, he's a nit, we going to own ourself a large % of the time 3betting K2o, which has little to no equity vs his calling range.

But his position stats were PFR = 8%, and he folds 67% to 3bets. A

Sorry but he isn't folding 67% of his UTG opens to 3bets. He's folding 67% of his total opens to 3bets. Subtle difference IMO.

vs his UTG range I'm playing 22-99 for set value. TT-QQ carefully post flop and 3balling KK+. I am not 3bet bluffing this player UTG raise with anything but a VERY sporadic bluff, as in probably never.

Also see this:

http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...he-t77410.html

[Robb]

He's UTG, he's a nit, we going to own ourself a large % of the time 3betting K2o, which has little to no equity vs his calling range.

But his position stats were PFR = 8%, and he folds 67% to 3bets. A

Sorry but he isn't folding 67% of his UTG opens to 3bets. He's folding 67% of his total opens to 3bets. Subtle difference IMO.

vs his UTG range I'm playing 22-99 for set value. TT-QQ carefully post flop and 3balling KK+. I am not 3bet bluffing this player UTG raise with anything but a VERY sporadic bluff, as in probably never.

Also see this:

http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...he-t77410.html

Thanks, that what's I was lookin' for. Though I still think with the right 3bet light hand, he's so weak-tight we can profit. But I will continue to think about it. We can set hunt him, but again he's so weak tight it's hard to get him to stack off. He'll make/call about 2 bets of value, then he's done w/ overpair TPTK hands.

[bigspenda73]

no hand is going to have much equity vs. his 3bet calling range

[Parasurama]

no hand is going to have much equity vs. his 3bet calling range

What is a typical 3bet calling range?

[Robb]

no hand is going to have much equity vs. his 3bet calling range

Spenda, are you saying we should never 3bet him light? Or that we should pick a VERY few hands and situations to 3bet him with?

Para, say he folds the bottom 4-5% of his 8% UTG PFR. He doesn't appear to 4bet very often (he's very nitty), so I would say his 3bet call range is half KK+, QQ, and AK (maybe JJ). But if he's folding 8 - TT, AJ, AQ, and KQ to 3bets, can we 3bet him light sometimes to take advantage of him folding a better hand? If so, with what hands? Hands like TT/JJ we can call for value, 22 - 99 we can set hunt. We can choose AQ, AJs and KQs to call for value, too. So what do we 3bet light with? Or do we never 3bet nits light?

I thought the point of 3betting light was to get better hands to fold and when they don't, have position and some value. He's very weak tight, so we can outplay him postflop, imo.

[OhBollocks]

Para, say he folds the bottom 4-5% of his 8% UTG PFR...

His UTG PFR is not 8%

[Robb]

Para, say he folds the bottom 4-5% of his 8% UTG PFR...

His UTG PFR is not 8%

o rly?

He doesn't seem to understand position. Over ~1k hands, his PFR's were:

EP: 8%
MP: 10%
LP: 9%

He doesn't steal much, either.

[Airles™]

On a side note, I'm also very negative with AQo and AQs. I need to think about how to play this hand a little better. I'm beginning to feel it's overrated.. all of my losses with AQ are against a preflop raiser to me, and I either 3 bet it with AQs or cold call with AQo.. think I may ditch AQo and maybe just call with AQs, depending on the villain of course.

Quit reading Phil Hellmuth books and realize AQ is not always the nuts.

This thread is worth some though. 3-betting light from the button seems to make perfect sense against these types of opponents because it's easy to narrow down their range, especially from UTG. I just wouldn't do it with K2o.

[Stacks]

fwiw, It's perfectly fine to flat your entire continuing range in this situation.

[animal_chin]

1. If I bet $6, I'm closer to getting the right odds against his "fold to cbet%".

Yeah but, doesn't this give him the right odds to call with more? i.e. he will have set odds if you 3b to $6.00 allowing him to make the right call with any pp. Wouldn't you want to bet more so that calling is the wrong decision here?

2. I need to choose hands with SOME equity postflop against his range or this is -EV.

The only thing that is good about your K2o is that the K is a blocker. I would think hand like KJ or stuff like A4s would be better to 3b bluff with. They have blockers but, also have some equity against villains calling range which would probably be mostly pairs I would think.

3. I thought about what hands to call for value and which ones to 3bet light.

I dunno about this one. I would think that all pocket pairs here are in our B range. Maybe some other hands but, I don't really know what.

I am a noob and any comments from some more knowledgeable people on what I said would definitely help my game.

[hangchiong]

After reading the flaming in Carroters post and this post.Im pretty much confused about the 3bet.

1.We 3bet light vs a nit with some hands that have some equity instead of junk hands.Seeing over a 67% fold to 3bet,we only have to make this 1 out 3 times to be profitable.

2.But by doing a 3bet an utg raise,we are going to play with his 3betting calling range or 4bettin range right?Do we want this?

[Robb]

fwiw, It's perfectly fine to flat your entire continuing range in this situation.

This makes sense. If he's that weak tight, we can just take hands with value, flat and profit by outplaying him postflop. Start the pot control now.

For others confused (sorry hangchiong!!), I think the key idea that I was missing is the difference between +EV and max EV. Some nits are so weak-tight that we COULD profitably 3bet them light pre. Doesn't mean it's the best way to get value out of their tendencies.

[Stacks]

fwiw, It's perfectly fine to flat your entire continuing range in this situation.

This makes sense. If he's that weak tight, we can just take hands with value, flat and profit by outplaying him postflop. Start the pot control now.

My statement really has a lot to do with balancing. Against an UTG raise from a nit (and most players) you aren't really going to want to 3bet bluff all that often. It's because of this that in this situation with a strong hand it's perfectly fine to flat it as you would the rest of your continuing range.

However, this opens up alot of other "what if he thinks on this level", etc type stuff.

[bigspenda73]

omg I wrote a long post that didn't go through

life-tilt

basically:

-3bet this guys mp/lp opens a lot if his range for continuing vs. a 3bet doesn't widen nearly as much as his PFR% does

-don't 3bet QQ/KK vs. this guy unless it's in like button vs blind situations, I might AA a ton as well.