shud i deposit more

[atom2k8]

ive been playing on small stakes tables for a while now and am grinding out results i started out with $50 and am getting bored grinding up im jus wondering shud i deposit more and bring my br up to the next level or shud i wait n keep grinding out the pocket change

[kb coolman]

No.

[atom2k8]

ok great help lol

[bigspenda73]

how many hands have you played?

how much money have you won at each stake?

name 3 tendencies that cause your opponents to be losing players and how you exploit each one of these tendencies

if you deposit and lose are you willing to move down in limits?

are you wealthy outside of poker?

[daven]

ive been playing on small stakes tables for a while now and am grinding out results i started out with $50 and am getting bored grinding up im jus wondering shud i deposit more and bring my br up to the next level or shud i wait n keep grinding out the pocket change

probably not deposit more

[AFchung]

answer spenda's questions and you will probably know the answer right away

[Sir Pawnalot]

It seems like a lot of people here are religious about building a bankroll from scratch. I did that too- but in retrospect I regret.

1. Grinding a bankroll from 100 dollars or less requires many hours of play. 100 hours of grinding micro stakes may do less than 10 hours of hard study on FTR or by reading books and railing mid-stakes in terms of improving your game.

2. If you are really good at table selection/seating 50Nl and 100 Nl is almost as easy as micro.

3. Micro may leave you some bad habits. (Scared of bluffing, not valuebetting thin enough, overestimating implied odds etc)

4. Think about your bankroll as a corporation. Do you really want to invest all your time on a corporation that has a worth of 50 dollars??

Depositing is good as long as you have:

- No financial problems
- An edge against most players (the sharper the better)

Why do you spell should "shud" and I "i"? Just curious

[Robb]

2. If you are really good at table selection/seating 50Nl and 100 Nl is almost as easy as micro. Just need a bit different adaptations.

3. Micro may leave you some bad habits. (Scared of bluffing, not valuebetting thin enough, overestimating implied odds etc)

Ever get the feeling you're offering someone about the worst advice in the history of bad poker advice?

[Sir Pawnalot]

I do not get that feeling. "If" and "may" were keywords.

If there is anything about my poker theory you would like to comment, please respond in my thread "Winning in poker".

[HarleyGuy13]

2. If you are really good at table selection/seating 50Nl and 100 Nl is almost as easy as micro. Just need a bit different adaptations.

3. Micro may leave you some bad habits. (Scared of bluffing, not valuebetting thin enough, overestimating implied odds etc)

Ever get the feeling you're offering someone about the worst advice in the history of bad poker advice?

This actually sounds like an experiment like the one they did with the sheep a few years back. Fish cloning! Could be good for the rest of the food chain I reckon?

[Knytestorme]

1. Grinding a bankroll from 100 dollars or less requires many hours of play. 100 hours of grinding micro stakes may do less than 10 hours of hard study on FTR or by reading books and railing mid-stakes in terms of improving your game.

Most of that advice is lolwut-worthy but this is the worst offender in my mind.

Poker is a game of skill and learning that grinding from the micro's teaches you early on:
1. How to find leaks in your game using tools such as HEM/PT and peer review of hh's
2. How to play different styles (TAG, LAG, LP, TP, WT)
3. How to deal with hours of mind-numbing boredom
4. How to multitable
5. How to make reads
6. How to incorporate huds into your reads
7. How to incorporate tells (timing, bet-sizing, etc) into your reads
8. How to adjust to other players (especially maniacs and 70/1 types)
9. How to add more hands and learn about positional play
10. How to evaluate and study your game outside of the tables

All of these are things that a beginner MUST learn how to do and won't be able to learn effectively from a book. A book will give a new player an idea of starting hands and why they play those hands but not an in-depth reason...for instance I'm certain not many newbie micro-grinders have read ToP even though they should.

No book out there will give advice or even links to ways to learn 1, 3, 4, 6 and possibly 10 yet for online poker they are some of the most important things a new player has to learn to do.

The other thing that a newbie starting off at 50/100 won't be able to do is learn any of these skills for cheap. Learning most of those skills will take a while and you will stake off often until you grasp the concepts and things start to become second nature....it doesn't matter if someone can reload at any time they want or not, the value in losing a $4 BI vs a $100 BI is still money saved in their poker career.

To be quite honest though, it all boils down to one thing....I don't believe that someone looking for an easy way to riches in poker will actually read the books or take the time to understand the theory and reasoning (or maths) behind them at a level that will actually make them beneficial.

At the moment I'm rolled quite easily to be playing $100NL and 5/10 LHE but I'm still learning things and I'm not too proud to say I'm playing $10NL so I can learn how to play 6-max and how it differs from my FR playing because over the long-run it will save/make me money.

[Sir Pawnalot]

Are you accusing me of inviting fish to small stakes?? Please have some respect for the original poster.

For some of us our poker bankrolls are less than 1 % of our total worth. Risking a little bit while learning some proper poker at a decent level is not that bad- is it?

Besides I assumed he had a skill edge on higher levels too.

[Jason]

Here's the thing: if you are a true winner @ microstakes and ANY stakes for that matter, it DOES NOT take long to build up your bankroll. By playing a modest amount of hands and having a "good" win rate, it literally can take just a few months to jump a few levels and in less than two years you can be @ $200NL.

As an example, let's say you have $90 @ $2NL. You shouldn't move up until you have 30 buy-ins for $5NL or $150. So you need to win $60 or 30 buy-ins for the level you're @. If you are a 12BB/100 or 6ptBB/100 winner and play a couple hundred hands 5 days a week or 1000 hands per week. You'll win $2.40 a week or 1.2 buy-ins per week. You'll have the 30 buy-ins in about 12 and half weeks or 3 months. So, if you maintained that win-rate and hands played per week for each level, you'd go from $2NL to $5NL to $10NL to $25NL to over half-way to $50NL in about a year. And, there's plenty of room to play more hands or improve the win rate to make it go even faster.

So, if you're winning and playing, the moving up should take care of itself. If you're not winning and deposit more money, you'll likely still lose and likely faster. Is it really a grind to play poker for money? If you are not enjoying it now, depositing more money probably won't help that either.

[Knytestorme]

I'm not accusing you of anything other than giving bad advice on this thread based on some very weird reasons.

My br is less than 0.5% of my current net worth...what's your point?

Risking a little bit to learn is not bad, if you can think of a valid reason for doing so. Reasons such as "they call with any two" and "I'm not making enough" are not valid reasons at all.

If you can't beat micro-stakes games for a decent win-rate over a significant number of hands then what possible reason is thre for an expectation of it to happen at higher rates...you've moved up to where they respect your raises?

As for wanting to move up to play at a decent level, that implies that the player wants to earn more than "pocket change" (to quote the OP) but if the poker br is such an insignificant portion of a players networth then how could moving from $10NL to $100NL really change the value of what they are playing for?

As for assuming OP has a skill edge, where has that ever been shown to be the case. I bet if OP showed up in a HH with you and you didn't know who he was, your comments in the review would be along the lines of "unknown, assume bad until shown otherwise"....though along this line of thinking I'm sure Guy LaLibertte has a massive edge on Durrr, Ivey, et al. right?

[Sir Pawnalot]

Jason stated that it does not take long to grind a roll. If you play a couple of hours a day I agree, but a lot of players play maybe 2-3 hours a week. You need a sick winrate to double your roll 100 times after 20 hours.

"If you can't beat micro-stakes games for a decent win-rate over a significant number of hands then what possible reason is thre for an expectation of it to happen at higher rates...you've moved up to where they respect your raises?"

Who are you referring to Knytestorme? OP: "Ive been playing on small stakes tables for a while now and am grinding out results"

I never assume a FTR member sucks. Why would he want to move up if he was not ready??

Seems like you guys just want to disagree on principle. I agree with everything you said Knytestorme.

[Knytestorme]

Jason stated that it does not take long to grind a roll. If you play a couple of hours a day I agree, but a lot of players play maybe 2-3 hours a week. You need a sick winrate to double your roll 100 times after 20 hours.

Then if they are only playing 2-3 hours a week what benefit to their game will they get from moving up?

"If you can't beat micro-stakes games for a decent win-rate over a significant number of hands then what possible reason is thre for an expectation of it to happen at higher rates...you've moved up to where they respect your raises?"

Who are you referring to Knytestorme? OP: "Ive been playing on small stakes tables for a while now and am grinding out results"

I wasn't referencing anyone....the phrase "I need to move up to where they respect my raises" is a phrase often used by players that can't beat microstakes and want an excuse to move up limits

I never assume a FTR member sucks. Why would he want to move up if he was not ready??

I said if you didn't know who he was....just need to watch any training video or look at any hand history and an unknown player will always be classed as sucking untilthey show they don't. If you don't judge new players at your tables that way then good for you, but you'll be giving them a lot more respect than they deserve

Seems like you guys just want to disagree on principle. I agree with everything you said Knytestorme.

Nope, I'm disagreeing with your post only, because you gave some god aweful advice in the one place it should never happen. Seriously "50NL and 100NL are almost as easy as micro" is pure crap and should not be posted in response to someone asking if they should deposit more so they can move up.

There are certain things that all new players really should learn in this game and bankroll management and how to grind are the 2 at the top imho. There is no shortcut to moving up, throwing money at it is not an easy solution in the long run as it will definately impede your progress.

Now I'm willing to admit I might be wrong...if OP comes back and says he only does this for entertainment and is quite happy to pay $500 a week for some enjoyment then fine, have at it, play as high as you want. However, since he's taking the time to post in here and has started out at the micros, I like to think he is trying to learn and prepare for a longer term future with the game and I'd like to offer him (and anyone else that reads this thread over time) advice that will enable that by giving him time to grow the skills he needs in a time-tested fashion.

[Stacks]

In order to be profitable at poker you must play in a game in which you have an edge over the competition. If after evaluating your game honestly, you feel you will have an edge (or have results to prove it) at higher stakes, and you can spare the money, then I don't personally see a problem with depositing more and moving up.

However, I'm going to say that the above is likely not the case. If you are struggling at the stakes you are currently at then moving up is NOT the answer. It is just common sense that the micro stakes contains more bad players than the lower/mid stakes. If you are equally skilled, worse, or only marginally better than the majority of the player base at your current stakes, then I advise you to stick it out and build your roll, moving up in stakes as you obtain enough buyins via proper bankroll management.

However, the above is assuming you wish to look at poker as a potentially profitable adventure. It's perfectly fine to take a bit more time to develop as a player before moving up to negate the possible negative side effects of moving up too early and failing.

If you are looking at poker in more of an entertainment sense, then it really just becomes a matter of how much are you willing (and able) to risk at poker, and what you hope to achieve. If you play just for fun and can risk another $500 and feel you would enjoy poker more by playing for more money then go for it. However, realize that you are risking $x and don't let it spiral out of control. Also another thought if you look at poker for entertainment is would you rather deposit $500 and play a few 200nl tables for the "thrill" of scoring big? Or would you rather take that same $500 and only move up one or two stakes, and increase the duration with which you can play if you are a losing player?

So all of the above is kinda general for anyone who reads it pondering the same question as OP. To tailor my advice to the OP, I would say that you likely aren't looking at poker as just a means of entertainment. If that were the case then you could have easily figured out how much you are willing to risk and deposit that to have some "fun". Instead you seem like a novice that is wanting to possibly make money (sorry if I"m wrong). If that's the case, then I suggest you stay at your current stakes (assuming you are properly rolled for it), and work on continuing to build your roll, while also making sure you are improving as a player.

[Stacks]

Also, bah at you guys saying your poker bankroll is <1% of your net worth. This makes me sad. I play poker as my job and have >4x the amount of money in my "liferoll" than in my bank account. Oh the woes of being a lowly college student.

And one last thing, it is 100% plausible to go from 2nl to 200nl in ~1 year. You could even go from a 2nd place win in a freeroll for $7 to 200nl in that timeframe imo.

[Sir Pawnalot]

I like you! You are thorough, honest and rational.

Imagine a player with a small bankroll. He has a big skill edge against players who he is not yet bankrolled to play against. He can easily afford a deposit. Wouldnt it be EV+ for that player to deposit so that he could start pwning those players? Or should he play another year (couple of hours a week) before taking that shot?

Only difference with you and me are our assumptions about OP. If he starts posting HH`s we could both give more relevant advice. I should not have assumed that OP was as skilled as I thought.

Your advice is extremely relevant to beginners, mine is not. I see the problems with my posts, but I thought I stated my assumptions clearly.

I am regarded as one of the very best players on Carbon so comments like: "Ever get the feeling you're offering someone about the worst advice in the history of bad poker advice?" stings.

I have never met a player who had a positive winrate from playing me and regulars flee my tables. Show some respect Robb.

Until now I had a positive experience on FTR, but this may be my very last post.

Just because I gave reasons for depositing does not mean I think he should.

GL

[Knytestorme]

Also, bah at you guys saying your poker bankroll is <1% of your net worth. This makes me sad. I play poker as my job and have >4x the amount of money in my "liferoll" than in my bank account. Oh the woes of being a lowly college student.

Been there, know how you feel but thankfully it gets better....and if it takes the sting out, I'd rather be a better poker player so I could actually move to vegas and not have to worry about getting a green card to survive

[/quote]
And one last thing, it is 100% plausible to go from 2nl to 200nl in ~1 year. You could even go from a 2nd place win in a freeroll for $7 to 200nl in that timeframe imo. [/quote]

Yep, it's really all about how much effort you put into getting better. hell, you could even go from winning 2 BBJ's to playing 200NL+ if your luckbox is in like some FTR'rs

[atom2k8]

Why do you spell should "shud" and I "i"? Just curious

cus i type like i txt most of d time

[Robb]

I am regarded as one of the very best players on Carbon so comments like: "Ever get the feeling you're offering someone about the worst advice in the history of bad poker advice?" stings.

I have never met a player who had a positive winrate from playing me and regulars flee my tables. Show some respect Robb.

Until now I had a positive experience on FTR, but this may be my very last post.

Just because I gave reasons for depositing does not mean I think he should.

GL

Good players can give bad advice. I think Negreanu's 500bb bankroll management plan is a perfect for one for noobies to follow - if they wanna go busto.

I would hate to see you leave 'cuz of what I said. I think you perhaps don't realize that one of FTR's founding principals is sound bankroll management. Noobies come in here (including me 18 months ago), completely unaware of the risk of ruin concept and building a sustainable bankroll plan for poker success. I can list at least a dozen of the bigtime regs here who crushed the micros and moved from 2nl or 5nl to 100nl+. For one, see Wil64, the moderator of this forum, who moved more than that in less than a year.

I just feel like for 98.37% of the noobies I've seen show up at FTR in the last year it would be a HORRIBLE idea for them to deposit hundreds of dollars and play 50nl. You can learn a lot moving up levels, and if you don't suck it will happen fast.

I started with 120 left in my account from earlier and built my current bankroll in like half a year

but if I had to start with 100 and to build it up higher NOW it would take me like a month to get over 1K
this is because I went through stretches of like 50K hands of breakeven poker
if I had been playing better it wouldn't take me this long

you realize it takes like 50K hands to move up one level, right?
that's like a weekend for some people on ftr

[Sir Pawnalot]

TY Robb.

I am from Norway and whenever I quickly write something I get misunderstood.

Sound bankroll management is a must in order to minimize the risk of going busto. However- you can still follow good bankroll management after depositing.

I failed to adjust my advice according to OP- since I do not know his skill level.

In the future I will be more cautious about rambling some 2:am ideas without any further thought.

[Jason]

Another point to consider regarding skill: I am an advocate of ALL players of ALL skill levels starting @ $2NL if you have never played online for real money. This is because there are some elite live players who, by their own admission, are terrible online players. The fact is that playing online IS different than live. I find the more I play both, the less the line is blurred, but when you first play online, the difference is pronounced. So, if you've never played online for money, you don't know how good you are and it just makes more sense to start at the bottom and work your way up. Again, it doesn't take long if you are a winner to move up.

All of this assumes you want to learn the game right and be a long term winning player. If it's purely recreational or winning and losing money is irrelevant, then obviously jump in wherever you like.

[Monsieur_chat]

You could even go from a 2nd place win in a freeroll for $7 to 200nl in that timeframe imo.

Stacks you are this >< close to being my FTR hero

[Robb]

TY Robb.

I am from Norway and whenever I quickly write something I get misunderstood.

If you use the Sir Pawnalot SN at Carbon, we've played each other. I'm RobbDaNuts there.

I learned a ton moving up through the levels. When I got better, my bankroll just zoomed upwards. I was amazed, because I don't get to play that many hands each month. Some guys here log 100k hands in a month, but I'm a part-time poker enthusiast with a full time job and 3 kids. I moved up to 50nl less than a month after moving up to 25nl, once I started playing really well. At 10nl, I ground $300 into $800 in about 9 weeks (and learned a TON). I just think these noobies ought to learn to crush the micros first, and poker will promote them to 50nl or 100nl when they DESERVE IT.

[Sir Pawnalot]

I am not Sir Pawnalot at Carbon. I am saftogbrus. Or as I often say after stacking someone: I AM THE SAFTO!

[Micro2Macro]

Sir Pawnalot if you EVER decide to leave FTR I will find someone to rob you of your bankroll.

[Sir Pawnalot]

It was just some late night bitching from me. I will not leave, because I want to keep my roll.

Just wondering who and especially how someone can rob my bankroll though.

[Micro2Macro]

It was just some late night bitching from me. I will not leave, because I want to keep my roll.

Just wondering who and especially how someone can rob my bankroll though.

Well 2 ways...
1) HU for rollz
2) Hack your account

Both would take a fair amount of skill though :/

[Sir Pawnalot]

Crazy how much I have learned after 3 weeks here.

Bring on Ivey!