KK on monotone flop

[tunah]

Trying to get started with the micros, and like most newbies I'm kind of lost post-flop - I'm winning lots of small pots and losing a few big ones, breaking even overall. Most of it's just undisciplined play, but I'm curious about this hand.

I'm also curious how people decide what hands to examine later - I want to work at putting people on ranges but having trouble doing it in real time.

Opponent was 30/13 after 30 hands, I hadn't made any notes on playing style (also something I need to work on!)

(first post so I can't use the converter... if the suit icons were emoticons then noobs could post HHs!)

iPoker No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (7 handed)

Button ($0.90)
SB ($0.30)
BB ($2.18)
UTG ($1.29)
MP1 ($4.93)
MP2 ($1.62)
Hero (CO) ($2.24)

Preflop: Hero is CO with Kh, Kc
UTG calls $0.02, 2 folds, Hero raises to $0.10, 3 folds, UTG calls $0.08

Flop: ($0.23) 4h, 8h, Jh (2 players)
UTG bets $0.23, Hero raises to $0.46, UTG raises to $1.19 (All-In), Hero?

Preflop is standard I'm assuming.

a) Postflop I know the minraise is bad, I didn't have a plan. I assume if I'm thinking of calling a shove then I need to shove first for fold equity?

b) Would such a shove have been good play?
After the flop bet my guess at a range is
Any flush (Ahxh, Th9h, 7h6h-3h2h?)
Nut flush draw (Ahx)
Overpairs (QQ+)
TPTK (AJ)
TP heart kicker (JTh, JQh)
Sets (88,44,JJ)
but I'm not sure what he'd call with.
If I can't shove, what do I do here?

c) As played, can I call? I'm not sure what his range is, because I'm not sure what he'd make of my weird bet.

[xptboy]

yes

[Robb]

Yeah, you're gonna pay off a set or some other big hand here sometimes, but you're ahead of his range. You're exactly right. Raise the flop bigger (or shove). As I played, I call.

[oskar]

So if you could see his cards, and he has a set of 8's, do you fold or call the shove?

Since this is your first post.
Watch: http://www.spoonitnow.com/pokerstove.html
Download: http://www.pokerstove.com/

[Robb]

So if you could see his cards, and he has a set of 8's, do you fold or call the shove?

Since this is your first post.
Watch: http://www.spoonitnow.com/pokerstove.html
Download: http://www.pokerstove.com/

Oskar, dude, just a vnh shout out for several high quality posts in the BC over the last couple of weeks. Love the links in this one - so helpful, even for some of us not-quite-noobies.

[tunah]

So if you could see his cards, and he has a set of 8's, do you fold or call the shove?

If i call I have 34% equity in $2.61 ($0.90), if I fold I save $0.73, so I call. I think when I start wondering about ranges I become preoccupied about being ahead or behind and forget about pot odds. (What surprises me more is if he's got a flush lower than K I've got odds to call too.) Thanks for that!

I figured I was in deep and probably had outs, so I called without really quantifying them. He had TcJs, I just wanted to make sure I hadn't taken the wrong lesson.

[bigspenda73]

Just jam the flop, he's never folding top-pair or the Ah after potting the flop so get it in now.

He'd also be more likely to slowplay a big hand so the only true hands you might worry about are sets, which, as always, make up such a smaller portion of someone's range.

[Warpe]

(first post so I can't use the converter... if the suit icons were emoticons then noobs could post HHs!)

:heart::club::diamond::spade:

[Stacks]

yes

WOW!! The level of thought that went into this post is absolutely fucking amazing.. You totally went above and beyond the call to help the OP.. You have impressed the fuck out of me, as I'm sure others are dazzled as well. Also I wouldn't be giving out such valuable information for free.. It's because of you, and your high level of thinking, that the poker games are getting immensely tougher.. Please to be coaching me.

Obvious sarcasm, but I wouldn't expect you to pick up on it. Please if you are going to post put some sort of thought (if you can muster it) into your posts, and explain your reasoning (which is likely to be flawed anyways). This will help OP get better, as well as you and others. Gah your post tilted me.



Anyways OP, everyone covered your question. Looking at as played, you are getting 2.57:1 odds on a call here.. 1/3.57 = .279, therefore, you only need ~28% equity in the pot. Your only beat by flushes, and sets at this time. If you use the worst possible range at this time {44,88,JJ,Ahxh} you only need to throw in one hand such as AJ and have nearly 50% equity.. So without bothering to put in an exact range, you are well over the equity needed to make this call.

[xptboy]

yes

WOW!! The level of thought that went into this post is absolutely fucking amazing.. You totally went above and beyond the call to help the OP.. You have impressed the fuck out of me, as I'm sure others are dazzled as well. Also I wouldn't be giving out such valuable information for free.. It's because of you, and your high level of thinking, that the poker games are getting immensely tougher.. Please to be coaching me.

roflmao, wtf, r u serious?!?! my reply really tilted u that bad? I mean, OP asked if he shud call, and I replied...

[Illfavor]

WOW!! The level of thought that went into this post is absolutely fucking amazing.. You totally went above and beyond the call to help the OP.. You have impressed the fuck out of me, as I'm sure others are dazzled as well. Also I wouldn't be giving out such valuable information for free.. It's because of you, and your high level of thinking, that the poker games are getting immensely tougher.. Please to be coaching me.

Obvious sarcasm, but I wouldn't expect you to pick up on it. Please if you are going to post put some sort of thought (if you can muster it) into your posts, and explain your reasoning (which is likely to be flawed anyways). This will help OP get better, as well as you and others. Gah your post tilted me.

My hero.

There is so much thinking to this game...and I post in the BC b/c I don't do enough of it when I play.

[kb coolman]

yes

WOW!! The level of thought that went into this post is absolutely fucking amazing.. You totally went above and beyond the call to help the OP.. You have impressed the fuck out of me, as I'm sure others are dazzled as well. Also I wouldn't be giving out such valuable information for free.. It's because of you, and your high level of thinking, that the poker games are getting immensely tougher.. Please to be coaching me.

roflmao, wtf, r u serious?!?! my reply really tilted u that bad? I mean, OP asked if he shud call, and I replied...

You completely missed the point of Stack's post. When someone posts a hand history, it's a learning opportunity for both the OP and those who reply. Show a little thought process. It's not just you, either. I've been guilty of it myself.

And FWIW, Stacks aggrivation is not unfounded nor unshared. There are way too many posts in the BC that don't contribute to learning. That seems to be turning around with our new mods, but we still have a long ways to go.

[Stacks]

yes

WOW!! The level of thought that went into this post is absolutely fucking amazing.. You totally went above and beyond the call to help the OP.. You have impressed the fuck out of me, as I'm sure others are dazzled as well. Also I wouldn't be giving out such valuable information for free.. It's because of you, and your high level of thinking, that the poker games are getting immensely tougher.. Please to be coaching me.

roflmao, wtf, r u serious?!?! my reply really tilted u that bad? I mean, OP asked if he shud call, and I replied...

Sadly, it actually did tilt me bad enough to write that post. And while your response is still absolutely horrible whether you were answering the one (of many) questions OP asked, your not the only individual guilty of it (as kb said).

The thing is, OP wouldn't have posted this hand if there wasn't some sort of reasoning behind why he wasn't sure if he should call or if he played the hand correctly.. Therefore, answering with a standard "yes/no, raise/fold/call" answer isn't going to do shit for OP except ensure that he may, or may not, have been correct in this given instance. Answers such as those aren't going to change OP's way of thinking, and when he is presented again with a similar situation he won't have the means to come to the correct conclusion.

However, if you reply with information such as, possible ranges for villain, our equity, our needed equity given pot odds, other things to consider, then OP can start to pick up on the questions and factors that must be considered and weighed in certain situations, and from that he can begin to make his own conclusions. You know the old saying "Give a man a fish, he eats for a day... Teach a man to fish, he eats for a lifetime"? Well you gave him a fish... We need to teach him to fish, and by doing so, we will also improve along the way.

[kb coolman]

However, if you reply with information such as, possible ranges for villain, our equity, our needed equity given pot odds, other things to consider, then OP can start to pick up on the questions and factors that must be considered and weighed in certain situations, and from that he can begin to make his own conclusions. You know the old saying "Give a man a fish, he eats for a day... Teach a man to fish, he eats for a lifetime"? Well you gave him a fish... We need to teach him to fish, and by doing so, we will also improve along the way.

[tunah]

Thanks for all the help guys, here's a similar hand that I think I played better (please comment if not!). Villain limps 50% pf, haven't noticed much else.

iPoker No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (9 handed)

Button ($3.31)
SB ($0.74)
BB ($1.52)
UTG ($1.82)
UTG+1 ($0.89)
MP1 ($2.11)
Hero (MP2) ($4.54)
MP3 ($1)
CO ($1)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with Kd, Ks
UTG calls $0.02, 1 fold, MP1 calls $0.02, Hero raises to $0.12, 5 folds, UTG calls $0.10, MP1 calls $0.10

Flop: ($0.41) 5d, 2d, 10c (3 players)
UTG checks, MP1 checks, Hero bets $0.30, 1 fold, MP1 calls $0.30

Turn: ($1.01) Qd (2 players)
MP1 bets $0.25, Hero raises to $0.76, MP1???

Stacks are big enough this time that I don't think I can shove the turn since only better will call me, is that right?

I think his range is similar to before:
Nut flush draw: Adx
Connecting diamonds: 3d4d+
Straight draw: 34s
Sets: 22 55 TT QQ (although he'd probably raise or c/r flop)
Overpairs: JJ AA (probably raise preflop or flop)
Top pair, flush draw: T+diamond or Tdx
TPTK: AT
Two pair: QT

What I'm not sure about is how this range changes once he calls or raises. I'm guessing he raises with any flush, maybe nut draw. Pokerstove gives me 40% against this range and I'd be getting 3:1, so I guess I call here.

If he calls I've got no idea... as far as I can tell it could be anything from his whole range to nut flush draw only. Getting check/called on multiple streets with a good hand is where I seem to lose lots of money.
For example if the river comes a diamond and he checks then I'm probably too scared to do anything but check behind.

Is there something I can do differently with the betting to avoid this, or a way to know his range I'm missing?

[swiggidy]

I'm just calling and looking for a cheep showdown. Raising would fold all the hands we beat, but almost nothing we beats folds. If he has a mediocre hand that beats us he'll be small on the river, saving us money. If he shoves there might be a decision.