Please help keep the Beginners Circle friendly

[donkbee]

Hi guys,

I have noticed that the general level of sarcastic and unfriendly posts in this forum has increased by quite a bit recently, and it's something we need to put a stop to in order to keep the Beginners Circle a welcoming place for new posters. While we're obviously not here to sugar coat things and express undying sympathy for everyone who has their AA cracked by 67o, we're not here to flame these people either.

If you can't post respectfully, please don't post at all. There are ways to tell someone their bad beat post sucks without flaming him or being unnecessarily sarcastic.

I'm going to be watching a little more closely for these things for the next while because I really want the Beginners Circle to be a friendly place for new people to FTR. I don't want people to be afraid to make an account and ask questions because they're afraid that they'll be ridiculed for it.

Thanks in advance for your help! I've copied/pasted a blurb from the FTR Rules of Conduct that should be used as a guideline if you're unsure as to what's acceptable and what's not. If you have questions, post here or PM me.

General Behavior

1. While constructive criticism is part of the learning and teaching process, repeated rudeness and unhelpful, condescending remarks in any discussion will not be tolerated.

2. Friendly banter and joking is fine, but since humor is subjective, be mindful of how your comments may be interpreted by new visitors. If your comment could be seen as threatening, hateful or mean-spirited, it's probably not a good idea to post it.

3. Flaming and harrassment is forbidden.

[kingnat]

Courtie,
I support the ideals of being kind. However, how can one constrain themselves with posts like this: http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...ts-t76479.html

[donkbee]

that thread is lol

Obviously if the new poster is in here being a dick, that is a different story. I am speaking more of the people who ask questions without knowing any better and then get unnecessary sarcastic remarks from others.

[bigspenda73]

Yea but the first 3 responses could certainly have been more cordial.

[bjsaust]

Thanks Courtie, I was about to bring this up myself. Feels like theres always been a bit of a line but lately its getting crossed a lot more.

[donkbee]

Yea but the first 3 responses could certainly have been more cordial.

Oh I agree that they weren't perfect. But while Deanglow could have been more welcoming in his first post, he wasn't rude or anything. He was pretty much just telling it like it was. He probably should have offered more of an explanation, but original poster could have also asked for an explanation in a much nicer way.

At least Keilah said congratulations.

I agree that badgers could have said things in a nicer fashion.

[spoonitnow]

There are some things I want to say on this topic and specifically about that thread but I'm playing right now and it's -EV so I might later.

Edit: Okay so PokerStars just crashed and I decided to end my session early so here goes.

I think in OP's second post when he said, "so, i'm a donkey on a good run? No need to be jealous," that should have been a sign that he didn't understand how insignificant his sample size was and that he was starting to become defensive, and I think that's really the only pieces of information needed to reply to the thread past that point. Once you understand where his lack of understanding is coming from, there's no need to take a confrontational route like a few people did. Since there was obviously some tension going on, I think a measure to keep the thread from exploding could have been useful too, like suggesting that there's no reason to be rude just because OP didn't understand how insignificant his sample was, etc.

[sarbox68]

I am all rainbows, ponies, jelly beans and love all the time....

My experience has been that FTR people are generally the most relatively nicest.... except when Prozac said I should be banned...

...which wasn't nice...

but I got over it...

[bigspenda73]

I am all rainbows, ponies, jelly beans and love all the time....

My experience has been that FTR people are generally the most relatively nicest.... except when Prozac said I should be banned...

...which wasn't nice...

but I got over it...

link?

[Xianti]

I'm 100% behind courtiebee on this. Give beginners a chance to be beginners. We've all been there before.

[hanlon2008]

there is no need for it

The thing I've noticed is that the noobs continuously look past the stickies. I'd say a good portion of the questions asked by new posters in the BC could be easily answered by themselves if they just took the time to read the damn stickies. That right there tells me that a) you are impatient and b) incapable of finding things out on your own. Perhaps the awesome regs who consistently come to the BC are growing tired of answering the same questions over and over and over and over and over...

To remedy this problem, maybe the web guys here at FTR can rearrange this board or give it a makeover. This board is running the old phpBB2. If they upgrade to the new phpBB3, the stickies + announcements all appear separated on the top of each forums so it's much harder to miss. Of course this could be done with a few simple programming skills to the current board as well. Just the 2 cents from a former web guru.

[Stacks]

The thing I've noticed is that the noobs continuously look past the stickies. I'd say a good portion of the questions asked by new posters in the BC could be easily answered by themselves if they just took the time to read the damn stickies. That right there tells me that a) you are impatient and b) incapable of finding things out on your own. Perhaps the awesome regs who consistently come to the BC are growing tired of answering the same questions over and over and over and over and over...

To remedy this problem, maybe the web guys here at FTR can rearrange this board or give it a makeover. This board is running the old phpBB2. If they upgrade to the new phpBB3, the stickies + announcements all appear separated on the top of each forums so it's much harder to miss. Of course this could be done with a few simple programming skills to the current board as well. Just the 2 cents from a former web guru.

QFT.. I agree with everything Mezza has said, and I know that's where all my hostility towards new players comes from (not saying i'm one of the awesome regs). If they don't have the willpower to get better by themselves, then they will not get better no matter how much stuff we spoonfeed them. I would think a beginning player that truly wanted to learn would jump at the "Beginner's Digest: Learning Starts Here!" sticky, yet most do not, and overlook it to create a thread and ask the very questions that the beginner's digest answers.

[bigspenda73]

Guys if they are new to internet forums in general, how are they supposed to know what a sticky is? We need to start giving people the benefit of the doubt before we start vilifying them.

[kingnat]

Guys if they are new to internet forums in general, how are they supposed to know what a sticky is? We need to start giving people the benefit of the doubt before we start vilifying them.

Does vilify mean 'castrate' or am I thinking of a different word?

I agree in general, but as is, I even forget about the stickies from time to time, cuz they are the things you by-pass to get to the new posts and such... I'm not saying there won't always be morons, but I think Mezza's ideas should be considered.

[bigspenda73]

Guys if they are new to internet forums in general, how are they supposed to know what a sticky is? We need to start giving people the benefit of the doubt before we start vilifying them.

Does vilify mean 'castrate' or am I thinking of a different word?

Vilify
1 : to lower in estimation or importance 2 : to utter slanderous and abusive statements against; defame.

Internet savvy or not, it's hard to miss these stickies in the new phpBB3 or if FTR's webmaster simply "blocks" them off from the rest of the forums/posts with the current board. It might just be easier to upgrade though.

Here's a link to the basic format of phpBB3. I don't think they have any stickies but you'll get a general idea where they have their announcements. Plus any forum rules are always posted at the top of each forum so there's never an excuse for someone not getting with the program.

http://www.phpbb.com/community/viewforum.php?f=46

[Stacks]

Internet savvy or not, it's hard to miss these stickies in the new phpBB3 or if FTR's webmaster simply "blocks" them off from the rest of the forums/posts with the current board. It might just be easier to upgrade though.

Here's a link to the basic format of phpBB3. I don't think they have any stickies but you'll get a general idea where they have their announcements. Plus any forum rules are always posted at the top of each forum so there's never an excuse for someone not getting with the program.

http://www.phpbb.com/community/viewforum.php?f=46

That looks incredibly nice. And I also like the idea, and think that if all beginners just followed the proper steps that the stickies provide then there would be a lot less hostility towards some of their questions. I absolutely understand that we were all there once (and I am not far ahead of it still), but there is only so many "Pot Odds" or "Does my kicker play" threads that one can encounter and still refrain from telling them to get their ass to the digest and learn.

[spoonitnow]

It's the beginner's forum because they're beginners. If they have what to us is an easy question to answer, and we answer it nicely, that just provides more incentive for them to stay.

[swiggidy]

Just because you're a beginner poster doesn't mean you have to be stupid.

[spoonitnow]

Just because you're a beginner poster doesn't mean you have to be stupid.

Just because you're not stupid doesn't mean you have to be an asshole.

[swiggidy]

Just because you're a beginner poster doesn't mean you have to be stupid.

Just because you're not stupid doesn't mean you have to be an asshole.

That was more at "not knowing what a sticky is" then being opposed to answering simple questions. Which I've answered many of because they're the only ones I'm qualified to answer. Also relates to someone being a prick if they don't like the first 2 responses.

I take issue with anyone who just randomly posts without even doing a basic search. If that makes me an asshole, fine.

[bjsaust]

I find a good approach is to give people the benefit of the doubt. Rather than assume they're stupid or trolling or whatever, assume its a language thing or not used to forums, or whatever. If its a continuing pattern then maybe something should be said.

[spoonitnow]

I just can't imagine any reason to get or act mad over something that happens on a forum.

[Xianti]

I just can't imagine any reason to get or act mad over something that happens on a forum.

Spoken like a moderator.

[Xianti]

We've actually been planning an upgrade to phpBB3. It's a major upgrade and we have a ton of modifications that we need to re-integrate or re-program for the new version, so it will be some time before we see it here. We'll be testing it, along with all the modifications on another site before we make the move on FTR.

I agree, people have been on my case for months
ban them all

[spoonitnow]

I just can't imagine any reason to get or act mad over something that happens on a forum.

Spoken like a moderator.

You're such a tease.

We've actually been planning an upgrade to phpBB3. It's a major upgrade and we have a ton of modifications that we need to re-integrate or re-program for the new version, so it will be some time before we see it here. We'll be testing it, along with all the modifications on another site before we make the move on FTR.

I figured this was the case, but I don't think there's a huge rush either.

[redpalo]

I'm a somewhat newbie at poker but I know forums! I have upgraded a modded phpbb2 site, FTR is an awesomely modded site /kudos and the upgrade will be a Pita.

As far as the frustration over not reading stickeys, I do have suggestion. To train the newbies, maybe instead of answering the questions, if the answer is in a stickey, paste the link, tell them that's where the answer is, ask them to read it and then come back and discuss with you what they learned from thier research and how they would have played the hand differently, etc. Eventually, they should start looking thier first.

RTFM so to speak.

[spoonitnow]

As far as the frustration over not reading stickeys, I do have suggestion. To train the newbies, maybe instead of answering the questions, if the answer is in a stickey, paste the link, tell them that's where the answer is, ask them to read it and then come back and discuss with you what they learned from thier research and how they would have played the hand differently, etc. Eventually, they should start looking thier first.

This is my current feeling on the subject as well.

[Stacks]

As far as the frustration over not reading stickeys, I do have suggestion. To train the newbies, maybe instead of answering the questions, if the answer is in a stickey, paste the link, tell them that's where the answer is, ask them to read it and then come back and discuss with you what they learned from thier research and how they would have played the hand differently, etc. Eventually, they should start looking thier first.

I love this idea, and this is currently what I like to do. I believe it weeds out the players that actually want to learn from the players that don't care to learn and just want the answers handed to them.

[spoonitnow]

I think some extra entries in the digest could help as well.

[donkbee]

Getting there, should be updated soon. I know you already posted in that digest suggestions thread, but be sure to post again if you have any other ideas. Thanks spoon.

[OhBollocks]

Hi guys,

I have noticed that the general level of sarcastic and unfriendly posts in this forum has increased by quite a bit recently, and it's something we need to put a stop to in order to keep the Beginners Circle a welcoming place for new posters. While we're obviously not here to sugar coat things and express undying sympathy for everyone who has their AA cracked by 67o, we're not here to flame these people either.

If you can't post respectfully, please don't post at all. There are ways to tell someone their bad beat post sucks without flaming him or being unnecessarily sarcastic.

I'm going to be watching a little more closely for these things for the next while because I really want the Beginners Circle to be a friendly place for new people to FTR. I don't want people to be afraid to make an account and ask questions because they're afraid that they'll be ridiculed for it.

Thanks in advance for your help! I've copied/pasted a blurb from the FTR Rules of Conduct that should be used as a guideline if you're unsure as to what's acceptable and what's not. If you have questions, post here or PM me.

Xianti wrote:
General Behavior

1. While constructive criticism is part of the learning and teaching process, repeated rudeness and unhelpful, condescending remarks in any discussion will not be tolerated.

2. Friendly banter and joking is fine, but since humor is subjective, be mindful of how your comments may be interpreted by new visitors. If your comment could be seen as threatening, hateful or mean-spirited, it's probably not a good idea to post it.

3. Flaming and harrassment is forbidden.

NH courtiebee.

To be honest, the BC is way more friendly than it used to be. I posted here early last year under a different name and the experience I had was not too nice to start with. In fairness I was only a recreational player at the time, but it seemed that flaming beginners was a hobby for the "residents".

I applaud your effort at keeping the BC friendly towards B's but credit where credit is due; it's come a long way already. Of course there are still some who seem to forget that they were once beginners too, but on the whole the experienced posters in the BC today are very helpful and quite patient too. I could name names but I'd be here for a while , y'all know who you are. Air five to y'all.

Flopturnriver.com/forums is a place where people who know how to make moneys sitting at home on their arses are willing to teach others how to do the same. Even people who are making serious $ spend some of their time in the BC, helping those who are willing to help themselves. IMO this is what distinguishes FTR from the other poker forums out there.

Let us all who have benefitted from the advise of regulars give them credit and thanks, and perhaps if flamers and sarcastics are ignored or put in their place, they will tire of jumping on newbies for making mistakes.

Admittedly, some newbies are A-Holes too, but thats not reason enough to flame. Ignorance can look like arrogance at first sight. My suggestion is advise, then ignore.

[badgers]

I agree that badgers could have said things in a nicer fashion.

hmmm, I actually thought I was quite restrained. I even said "well done".

[spoonitnow]

It's really easy to pick someone weaker out as a target. Just an observation.

[donkbee]

Announcement: I will be splitting out posts that I deem inappropriate without notification and getting rid of them. If you find that your post has been removed and you want to know why, please PM me.

Things have gone pretty smoothly over the last week. Thanks to everyone making an effort to keep things friendly!

[spoonitnow]

Announcement: I will be splitting out posts that I deem inappropriate without notification and getting rid of them. If you find that your post has been removed and you want to know why, please PM me.

Things have gone pretty smoothly over the last week. Thanks to everyone making an effort to keep things friendly!

So I guess redzilla is fucked?

[GatorJH]

Well played Courtie

I FTR