Best way of playing Kings with A-flop

[Andrew]

Just wondering what the general consensus is on playing with KK vs an A-high flop both in and out of position. I've seen a few threads here about specific situations but not been able to find something "concrete".

[Warpe]

Chew this over and discuss.


http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...66.html#181816

[spoonitnow]

Yeah but that's IP.

OOP it depends on whether villain is calling you down lightly and how drawish the board is, imo.

[jyms]

LOL at some of the talent in that thread getting schooled by Gabe. Learning this concept was on of those AHA moments I had a while back. This also works with 99, 88, 77 when calling for set odds IP and missing the flop. If they check a bad board on the flop I will call a turn bet and hope to see a C/C river and showdown. I can't tell you how many KJo or 22 hands will make only one bet at a pot. Betting to find out where you are is so over rated. WA/WB is where you are almost anytime you have 1 pair.

[spoonitnow]

"Betting to find out where you're at" is one of those seemingly cool catch phrases that new players tend to pick up but really have no idea when or how it should be used.

[taipan168]

"Betting to find out where you're at" is one of those seemingly cool catch phrases that new players tend to pick up but really have no idea when or how it should be used.

+1

The other thing is that a lot of players "bet to see where they're at" but when opp calls they still have no idea where they're at.

I thought that This thread was a pretty good explanation of why betting to see where you're at is generally wrong.

[sweetlemon69]

Gabe started it in the context of a SNG, do you think this specific play is much different in a full ring cash game vs. a LAGG?

[Thunder]

Trainer, can you explain your post a little please? Especially what CC, WA and WB mean.

"Betting to find out where you're at" is one of those seemingly cool catch phrases that new players tend to pick up but really have no idea when or how it should be used.

True. I am guilty.

The other thing is that a lot of players "bet to see where they're at" but when opp calls they still have no idea where they're at.

Guilty too.

And what if you're first to act?

[Robb]

Trainer, can you explain your post a little please? Especially what CC, WA and WB mean.

And what if you're first to act?

I'll take a stab at the abbreviations:

CC means check/check on the river.

WA/WB means you're either way ahead or way behind.

If I'm first to act with KK on A high board, I'm checking villain(s)' stats to see any weakness. I bet into villains in this situation and at least twice every 5k hands see someone fold/show AT like they made a hero laydown. Again, I'm attacking players who tend to fold to cbets and rarely rr them.

[bjsaust]

CC = Check/Call.

WA = Way Ahead.
WB = Way Behind.

Theres a thread stickied in this forum that covers all the terms.

WA/WB generally means you're in a situation where you're winning by a lot, or losing by a lot. In this situation if you bet, you're almost certainly only being called (or raised) by hands better than you, so theres no value in betting. On the other hand, if OOP, if you check then worse hands than you may bet and you can call them.

[Robb]

P. S. Position matters, but so does image. Even at microstakes, (some) villains tend to fear the true TAGG's. If you have that image, especially amongst the regs, more of your cbets work. It helps to remember that table image only really applies to last 20 - 30 hands (at NL10). What have you shown down lately? How often have you played a hand?

For proof that image matters, even at micros, remember to watch what happens when you play 4 premium hands aggressively in a single orbit. On the 4th one, villains are calling you to the river with junk, just sure that you're full of shit.

[taipan168]

Here is another thread about playing KK with an ace on the flop. AMT's post at the other place that I quoted was a very good reply.

[pilotpa23]

Well, this isn't the ace on the flop, but I just played a hand with Kings that the Ace came on the turn. I was sure this person was going to make this move as they were running about 60% VP, and I think the way I played it got me the most I was going to get out of the hand. I was sure after the turn bet he was taking a rather week stab at a bluff on the ace, and the river bet was an instant call. - criticism welcome.

PS - sorry about using the letters - I'm not allowed to post URLs yet.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (9 handed)

UTG+1 ($2.90)
MP1 ($2.78)
MP2 ($3.43)
MP3 ($5.58)
Hero ($5.88)
Button ($11.33)
Villain ($9.95)
BB ($9.62)
UTG ($7.20)

Preflop: Hero is CO with Ks, Kd.
2 folds, MP1 calls $0.05, 2 folds, Hero raises to $0.35, 1 fold, Villain calls $0.33, 1 fold, MP1 folds.

Flop: ($0.80) 3s, 3d, 9d (2 players)
Villain checks, Hero bets $0.65, Villain calls $0.65.

Turn: ($2.10) Ah (2 players)
Villain bets $0.4, Hero calls $0.40.

River: ($2.90) 7d (2 players)
Villain bets $0.3, Hero calls $0.30.

Final Pot: $3.50

Results in white below:
Villain has 4h 9s (two pair, nines and threes).
Hero has Ks Kd (two pair, kings and threes).
Outcome: Hero wins $3.50.

[jyms]

they are right. Basically, anytime you make a bet on a board with an obvious nut hand and don't have the nuts, Teh only hands that call you are the nuts. It's like shoving All In to rep the flush when the third heart comes on the turn, only the flush is calling. Any hand that doesn't beat you folds. So when betting into an A high flop with KK, the only hand that is calling is an A or better. But, on the river, there are tons of hands that bet to take the pot. So save your c bet for when it can make you more money, and that is by calling or leading the river, when non A hands will bet or call.

Win money, NOT pots

[jyms]

Gabe started it in the context of a SNG, do you think this specific play is much different in a full ring cash game vs. a LAGG?

There are reasons why Gabe is now a machine at Cash games, and thinking like this is one of them. This play is almost perfectly suited to cash games vs. a LaGG, because they don't fear the A on the turn/river after you check the flop or two streets and will almost surely take a stab at the pot.

I would also point out that thinking in terms of making "plays" is one of the things that makes it hard to understand a lot of concepts. There are no real "plays" in poker. We do things because of circumstances, opponents ranges and board textures. To just do something because you've "seen this play work" does nothing to either help with the understanding of poker, or why we do what we do. You need to see why not betting this flop is correct and makes us more money long term.

[Robb]

Two points, TJ. First, I think this is a great discussion and your point about "plays" is spot on. I need to work on the right kind of thinking about "plays."

Second, just wanted to point out that cash games are different in this sense: Even SnG's against known villains can be difficult reads, but cash games offer static and often extremely detailed reads. Example: I might have a HUD read with 900 hands against a villain whose flop-play stats and general playing style may lead me to believe he's folding some weak Aces to my cbet. If he's weak enough, the cbet's reasonable w/KK, right? Especially if I also think he's one of the players who opens weak aces waaaaaaay too often. (Remember, I play NL10 - I see some REALLY bad villains that Gabe isn't describing, imo.)

I have been trying this out against villains I have an ounce or two of respect for, and I like it. The most memorable time I tried it, I paid off AJ, but turn and river were both 1/3 pot bets.

[Thunder]

Other things can puzzle me, is the oft used phrase of only better hands will call you and though I understand the logic, I see so many hands that don't ascribe to this. All I know is that many times I have been sure I was dead but won the hand, seen a bet into a flop of AAK get called yet neither villain has anything connected to the board and trapped opps with flushes by having a FH. Is it a limit thing? Or cash vs tourney thing where this phrase is more defacto?

"Betting to find out where you're at" is one of those seemingly cool catch phrases that new players tend to pick up but really have no idea when or how it should be used.

Can we have a tutorial on this?

The other thing is that a lot of players "bet to see where they're at" but when opp calls they still have no idea where they're at.

And this?

[Jibalob]

The thread linked above is absolutely awesome. I would have thought I would have grasped the basic concepts discussed in that thread by now but reading that just made something "click".

OT - Thunder, WTF happened to your BR?

[jyms]

Other things can puzzle me, is the oft used phrase of only better hands will call you and though I understand the logic, I see so many hands that don't ascribe to this. All I know is that many times I have been sure I was dead but won the hand, seen a bet into a flop of AAK get called yet neither villain has anything connected to the board and trapped opps with flushes by having a FH. Is it a limit thing? Or cash vs tourney thing where this phrase is more defacto?

Once you get out of the micro stakes and into even small stakes, you will see things make a lot more sense. yea guys call with GS's and underpairs, but it's because they can't fold. That in and of itself is the best read you can get, since now you have information. And anything you do with information will likely be more correct. Biggest problem some of the thinking people have when taking up poker is understanding that you need to think about what you opponent is thinking, and act accordingly, not what you would do in that situation.

[Robb]

Biggest problem some of the thinking people have when taking up poker is understanding that you need to think about what you opponent is thinking, and act accordingly, not what you would do in that situation.

Or not thinking.

[TheSyphon]

Why not bet like you have Big Slick and get weak Aces gone? I'ts unlikely that anyone could have Big Slick since you have pocket Kings.

If I have Ace Jack, I'm worried about Big Slick.

[Pelion]

OT - Thunder, WTF happened to your BR?

Thunder. It is probably -EV to sell your house to bankroll poker.

[flomo]

i didn't notice his bankroll

i did notice his avatar!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[littleogre]

well in micro stakes where people play pretend poker oop i would bet about 3/4ths pot not to find out where i am but as a value bet. If the opponent calls sure he might have the ace but they could also call with a whole range of hands so by checking you are just giving up to much value. Just be leary of weak passive players that like to call down with top pair.

[martindcx1e]

Why not bet like you have Big Slick and get weak Aces gone? I'ts unlikely that anyone could have Big Slick since you have pocket Kings.

If I have Ace Jack, I'm worried about Big Slick.

So are you saying that you auto-fold AJ on A-high dry flops vs. a cbet? And are you saying that most players can easily fold top pair vs. a flop cbet? I certainly hope not.

well in micro stakes where people play pretend poker oop i would bet about 3/4ths pot not to find out where i am but as a value bet. If the opponent calls sure he might have the ace but they could also call with a whole range of hands so by checking you are just giving up to much value. Just be leary of weak passive players that like to call down with top pair.

So I assume you are firing again after your flop bet then if you are betting for value? If so then double barreling dry A-high boards with KK can't be +EV.

[langaan]

[quote="martindcx1e"]

Why not bet like you have Big Slick and get weak Aces gone? I'ts unlikely that anyone could have Big Slick since you have pocket Kings.

If I have Ace Jack, I'm worried about Big Slick.

anyone capable of folding a weak ace on this flop is capable of folding it pre-flop,
if they werent capable of foling to a 3bet pfop, they sure as heck arent folding to a cbet after pairing the ace.

well in micro stakes where people play pretend poker oop i would bet about 3/4ths pot not to find out where i am but as a value bet. If the opponent calls sure he might have the ace but they could also call with a whole range of hands so by checking you are just giving up to much value. Just be leary of weak passive players that like to call down with top pair.

betting 3/4 pot is not folding any ace, and it very well may fold hands that you beat, which means your vallue betting is exactly backwards.

you may be right in the fact that micro stakes donks may call down with hands you can beat, but an ace high flop is just not the time to value bet.
call down instead and you still get value out of those hands that you beat.

yes, you may not get alot of value, but what can you do, its poker and theres an ace on deboard.

[langaan]

well in micro stakes where people play pretend poker oop i would bet about 3/4ths pot not to find out where i am but as a value bet. If the opponent calls sure he might have the ace but they could also call with a whole range of hands so by checking you are just giving up to much value. Just be leary of weak passive players that like to call down with top pair.

so you are value betting all streets? or are you slowing down if called on flop?
if you intend on slowing down on turn/river... why not wait until then to value bet?

you will ahve a much better idea where you are on the turn river after seeing vill's actions ...

value betting KK on all streets on a A high dry board is super bad imo.

[martindcx1e]

value betting KK on all streets on a A high dry board is super bad imo.

you are right, and if you shut down after your flop bet then your flop bet is a waste of money.

[littleogre]

Why not bet like you have Big Slick and get weak Aces gone? I'ts unlikely that anyone could have Big Slick since you have pocket Kings.

If I have Ace Jack, I'm worried about Big Slick.

So are you saying that you auto-fold AJ on A-high dry flops vs. a cbet? And are you saying that most players can easily fold top pair vs. a flop cbet? I certainly hope not.

well in micro stakes where people play pretend poker oop i would bet about 3/4ths pot not to find out where i am but as a value bet. If the opponent calls sure he might have the ace but they could also call with a whole range of hands so by checking you are just giving up to much value. Just be leary of weak passive players that like to call down with top pair.

So I assume you are firing again after your flop bet then if you are betting for value? If so then double barreling dry A-high boards with KK can't be +EV.

well on the turn if we are first to act yes we must double barrel. basically at micro stakes you keep beting untill they give you reason to stop. sure you might feel foolish when they just falt call you all the way but remember we are playing loose calling stations for the most part. We are not really beting to figure out if we are infront or behind the ace we bet the flop and turn to get value out of pocket pairs or any pair they made on the flop. also they will call with all kinds of draws. now if their are no draws on the board and they call the flop and turn then you must give strong thought to them having an ace. i don't like checking the flop as i think it is really weak. We don't get value from bad calls and we give them control of the pot. now if we are last to act and they call on the flop and check the turn we should usually check behind