$24 - KK Ahigh flop

Check or bet the flop?

Full Tilt Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t50 (8 handed) Hand History converter Courtesy of PokerZion.com

SB (t1295)
BB (t2625)
UTG (t2380)
UTG+1 (t1455)
MP1 (t1630)
MP2 (t1320)
CO (t1318)
Hero (t1477)

Preflop: Hero is Button with K[ Spade

], K[

].
5 folds, Hero raises to t150, 1 fold, BB calls t100.

Flop: (t325) 2[ Spade

], Q[

], A[

] (2 players)
BB checks, Hero ??

i check...

and your plan is...?

Never check this. C-bet and fold to aggression. I'd even consider a strong 2nd barrel if c-bet is called, as we could well fold out weak Ax's.

i bet 4x pre and i c-bet half the pot, if he calls hes probly on an ace.

Bet 3/4 of the pot . . somewhere around 250ish, villain could be calling with such a wide range we have no idea what he has, by checking we allow him to represent the Ace on the turn. If we bet and get called then I'd like to go check/check, but I reckon we bet, he folds more times than not.

Personally I would bet 200 here and see what he does. There are plenty of hands that BB could call with that do not contain an ace.

This is a different case to where somebody raises, we re-raise preflop in position and the raiser calls in which case it is better to check behind on the flop.

if u check your giving him a free card, at this point your more than likely ahead, but who knows what the turn or river would bring him. so u have to bet here to protect your hand.

Just read the thread at the other place. Very interesting reply.

Not the most dangerous board and not many bad turn cards.

Why would you check? Are we super hand readers that can only put opp on Ax? He can have a heap of hands for which the A is more of a scare card to him than it is to us. A c-bet gives us a great chance to find out where we are, a check doesnt tell us crap. He could have been planning a c-r, now the turn comes and unless its a K we have no more idea where we stand than we did, except for that now if he leads turn we dont know if he has an A, a Q, paired the turn, or is just plain stealing. Thats a shitty position to be in and could well have us folding the best hand.

And I said I'd consider a double barrel, would depend on reads, table image, etc. Bare in mind it is possible to win hands with the 2nd best hand sometimes. Opp has a hand he called our raise with, but didnt reraise PF, that could mean something, and strength can drive some people out if you feel its worth trying.

Betting to see "where you're at" is not a good reason to bet. You bet because you believe you have the best hand or that if you bet opp will fold a better hand. In this case we cannot be sure of either, so I can see the logic for checking.

If you check behind here, you deny opp the opportunity to pull a C-R and also get one street closer to showdown (as AMT says). That said, if you are checking behind here, you cannot fold to a small bet on the turn or river so checking behind is not without its risks.

Meh , even what if the board DID have 2 to a suit , we cbet/fold? Vs. agressive opponent we could very likely be folding the best hand if we do this since a fd/combo draw/ is gonna play it the same way.... i guess im getting too far away from the orginal hand ,

I'm not convinced here. We seem to be setting ourselves up to lose out on this hand in multiple ways by checking. We can fold to a weaker hand, or we can call down a better hand. The only profitable line with checking is catching a bluff, or hoping he's betting a Q.

You've both said betting to see where we are isnt a good reason to bet, but I see it as a great reason to bet. Someone explain why its a bad reason?

Someone bump the old gabe thread , that is the one that really got me thinking about being in position with KK when a Ace flops and it's checked to you (heads up) , and i think the post Taipan quoted by AMT is a beautiful description of why betting here is "generally wrong". If we were OOP than betting is the best line IMO.

I think this is a bit different from the Gabe situation because that involved a 3x raise by opp out of position, a 9x re-raise by Hero in position with KK, a flat call by opp then an open check on an A high flop by opp, action to us. In Gabe's case I think we can narrow opp's range much more which tends to bias the range more heavily to Ax-type hands than in mattiesmat's hand.

That said, the logic that we chase out worse hands and only get called by better hands that AMT laid out so well still stands. However, I don't think that betting this flop is as big a mistake in mattiesmat's hand as it is in Gabe's hand since opp's range is clearly wider in mattiesmat's hand than in Gabe's.

I guess my point is, using a check flop, c/c turn, c/c river approach, we probably put more money into the pot and still have no idea if we're ahead or not.

What does a 1/2 pot sized bet on turn mean? What does a 3/4 or pot sized bet on the turn mean?

We have no idea what opps hand is, but theres at least some chance it can improve on the turn. PPs < QQ could hit a sit, KJ or KT could hit a straight, KQ and QJ could hit two pair.

I guess its an argument between trying to extract more value and trying to take the pot while we think we could be ahead. Theres 325 chips in the pot atm. Sure it would be nice to extract more with a hand like KK, but its still better than 20% of our stack before we started the hand.

I guess one point through this thread, is other than the copy/paste from the other place, I'm only seeing people say do this or dont do that, without explaining why they think thats the correct me. My thinking might be wrong, or my thinking might be right but my conclusion/line might be wrong, but at least I'm giving reasons why I use that line.

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$24 - KK Ahigh flop