When is it not worth attempting to steal blinds?

[thizzSantaCruz]

Stealing blinds is a big part of NLHE online when people are playing relatively tight and a good sized PF raise is 4xBB+1BB/limper. How does this affect the attempts to steal blinds when someone has to raise around 6-7xBB+1BB/limper to isolate?

How often if at all would you be stealing the blinds?

[euphoricism]

I dont understand.

Why would you raise to steal the blinds when theres a limper? You should be raising to isolate the limper, and use the blinds as a little bit of overlay. Unless youre saying that when you do that the blinds are coming along and hence you need to raise more. The obvious conclusion is to get tighter and consider a new seat/table.

[Beck]

its not stealing blinds when there are other limpers.

[Big-EZ]

The online time it's not worth a steal attempt is when you have one of the smaller stacks at the table and hold absolutley nothing in your hand. Not even a high card. If you have nothing and damage can be done to your stack if you get called that's the only time it's not good to try and go for a steal.

[thizzSantaCruz]

Let me specify my post a little more. It seems as if people are a little confused.

The setting: A B&M casino filled with loose donks that want to see cards no matter what. 5 callers to a raise in a hand is not uncommon unless the raise is around 6-7xBB.

I have earned some respect after showing down some monsters and people are getting hesitant to play with me. I decide I probably should steal some blinds when maybe only one person limps in and I have position. Is this a leak? Should I only try to steal when no one limps (which in this game would be never)?

If it is not a leak, should I be stealing less often, becasue I am risking more with my raise than I am gaining with the play (I would be risking 6-8bb for 1.5-2.5bb instead of 4-5bb for 1.5-2.5bb)?

And does this situation change at all when the bad beat jackpot is in effect causing the small blind to post a full bet? In this situation I could be earning another .5bb when trying to steal.

I am sorry for the confusion bb=big blind here and not big bet.

[AHiltz]

I decide I probably should steal some blinds when maybe only one person limps in and I have position

Then it's NOT a steal, but an isolation.

Ask yourself why you are isolating? Are you punishing weak limpers, trying to build an agressive image or protecting good hands from lots of limpers/callers?

[thizzSantaCruz]

In this situation I am trying to punish the limper. Everyone limps in this game and it is ridiculous. After I started raising and showing down with quality hands one of the guys even said, "Thats it for me no more limping." The point I am trying to get to: how does the effective raise size effect how often you steal the blinds. Since stealing the blinds with one limper is confusing a lot of people forget that. Lets say it is folded to you and the effective raise is 7xbb. Are you risking 7bb with moderate hands to win 1.5bb as often as you would be risking 4bb?

[Big-EZ]

In this situation at a very loose table I never raise a limper or two with nothing. But if I see anything like A-8, K-9, Q-10, or better I will definitley be raising as I probably will with any pocket pair.

I don't think you should be trying to steal here with a hand like 10-6. But all hands I might limp with will turn into raises if there is one or two limpers in front.

[Thee One]

Ok, here's my shot. Keep in mind, I may be totally wrong on everything including the math (but I don't think I am).

I think you're asking:
At a table where the preflop raise has to be to 7xBB or more in order to see a flop HU, is it still worth it to steal blinds because your risk is so much bigger than your reward?

My answer:
To show a profit here you have to be successful 5 out of every 6 steal attempts (5*1.5BB=7.5BB) - 7BB(for when you get caught) = .5BB profit. Whereas to show a profit using a 4x raise you just need to be successful 3 out of every 4 times (3*1.5BB=4.5BB) - 4BB(for when you get caught) = .5BB profit.

The question comes down to do you think you'll get looked up more than once every six tries?

Now if we factor in one limper who folds to the steal attempt you need to be successful 3 out of every 4 tries, making this essentially the same risk as a blind steal at a 'regular' table. It then becomes obvious that if this situation presents itself that you should go for it.

*failure means when you have to give up on the hand without putting any more money into the pot preflop or post other than your 7x preflop raise.

*Success means winning the pot pre-flop. I don't have the skillz to caclulate EV on the times when villain forces a flop and you gain more BB due to post-flop betting or when villain folds to a flop c-bet.

Hope that helps.