How to get away from top two pair...

[kc8986]

This is a specific situation that happened to me and I'd like advice on how to play this situation. 8 players in a $25 max buy-in ring game. Early in the game. All are average players. Button is semi-loose preflop and aggro post, but definately not a shark.

Your in CO with with KT off, it's folded to you, you raise 3xbb.
Button calls, blinds fold.
Flop comes KT5 rainbow.
You have top two pair, and are first to act.

What I want to know, it how would you play this hand in a way to find out that the guy in the button has pocket 5s. Is it possible, or do you always pay off the trips in this situation?

How would you play it differently if the guy was tagg?

[sejje]

Always pay off, personally. TAG or no TAG.

[DBL0SVN]

What I want to know, it how would you play this hand in a way to find out that the guy in the button has pocket 5s. Is it possible, or do you always pay off the trips in this situation?

How would you play it differently if the guy was tagg?

With average players there are far too many top pair or middle pair hands or draws, that he will call pot sized bets all the way to the river with, to worry about him holding 55. Nine times out of 10 you are ahead and need to drop Fnord's hammer onto him. If he reraises all in on the river, I may drop it, but most of the time you are winning here.

[dzeanah]

Something similar has happened to me a few times, so I thought I'd pipe up.

Basically, when you're out of position in this situation, the thinking is "go ahead and bet it up, because even though you may get beat right now in the long term it's the right play and will pay off?"

Meaning bet the flop, turn, and river as long as it looks like you've got the best hand, and the hell with the risk (after all -- that's poker)?

Same thing if you've got a K-high flush -- go ahead and bet it as if you've got the nuts, ignoring the possibility that your opponent might have the ace (after all, what are the odds)?

Just trying to get a better feel for correct play here -- cases like my avatar happen (I even flopped 4 Q's with Q-9 hole cards once) so there are times you're beat even when everything you see says "go." Do you go ahead and play ignoring that (miniscule) risk, or do you perform some kind of a sanity check (like a weak bet on the turn to see if it gets re-raised) that reduces the potsize and opens you up to a bluff?

Or is all this situational, and depends on the players and your reads (I'm weak at putting players on hands, but haven't been playing a month yet), and I'll get a feel for it eventually?

[Miffed22001]

Personally if i have to get it all in with top 2 pair, i will without hesitation in most scenarios. I dont see how folding can be an option. Sometimes you pay a set sometimes you beat an over pair sometimes you beat a worse two pair. WIth top two losing as little as possible is the best play against a set

[lowBoy]

Without a read on the guy as a shark, I pay a set off every single time if he pushes.

[Laeelin]

Unless you have a flush/straight draw that you can place them on(that just hit), or the board is paired, then i'm going broke against a set with top two pair.

Always rember to look at what they would make that play with.

Against most players, because they will play so many hands like the nuts(overpair, TPTK, TPGK, bottom pair, flush/straight draw, etc) you cant fold top two pair.

I'll fold KK preflop 10 times before I will fold TPTK on a flop without a flush/straight draw out there. (and I'd still stay in against most players.)

[lowBoy]

I'll fold KK preflop 10 times before I will fold TPTK on a flop without a flush/straight draw out there

Whoa, dude... I know you're trying to make a point, but let's not get crazy here.

[Laeelin]

I'll fold KK preflop 10 times before I will fold TPTK on a flop without a flush/straight draw out there

Whoa, dude... I know you're trying to make a point, but let's not get crazy here.

Well, ok, i'd fold it twice before i'd fold top two pair in that situation.

[Irisheyes]

Why do people think there is such a difference between TOP two pair and two pair that isn't top two?

eg. Are you playing K5 differently here? Ignore the fact that you have a five so him having a set of 5's is less likely etc. You know what I mean.

[Miffed22001]

top two pair gets beaten regularly.
eg you hold 64 on board K46 other guy has tpgk
then if turn and river are 2s you get screwed. That doesnt happen to top two pair. If i hold top two im not afraid to get it all in if i hold top and bottom pairs on flop K5 in this case im more wary but still likely to get it in. Thats unlikely with bottom two pair.

[Laeelin]

Why do people think there is such a difference between TOP two pair and two pair that isn't top two?

eg. Are you playing K5 differently here? Ignore the fact that you have a five so him having a set of 5's is less likely etc. You know what I mean.

The chance of the board pairing gives a lot of outs against you. With top two they need runner runner paired overcards to beat you with a pair... With bottom two they just need anything to pair, and with top + bottom pair they also have several more outs to beat you.

Bottom two is a good hand, but it's very very vulnerable.

[Irisheyes]

I never thought of that. I was only thinking about the chances someone else had top 2 pair when I had bottom 2. Makes sense now.

[sejje]

That's not entirely true...it happens to top two if there's an overpair out.

Anyway, I don't really play top and bottom pair differently from top two, with obvious exceptions.

For instance, A4 on a AK4 board is a little different.

[TalentedTom]

KT on KT5 board is a fantastic hand because AK/KQ are more than happy to pay you. The hands you have beat versus the hands that have you beat is just too highly in your favor, you must indeed pay off most players here.

The only situation where fold is something to consider is if a weak-tight nutstraddler reraises you. Weak-tights dont even reraise with AK, they only reraise with absolute monsters.