Revisiting the Hand Groupings for NLHE

[Fnord]

{Split from the original topic in Feedback. - Xianti}



*insert standard rant about just how wrong the FTR NL groupings are*

[ttanaka]

LOL, alright Fnord, I know you don't like those groupings, but let me ask you something, how wrong are they, if I can win pretty easily and consistently in just about every session I play those NL ring games on 3 tables simultaneously?

I mean I don't follow any chart religiously, any chart/hand grouping is maybe a starting point for beginners, followed by situational thinking, game theory, you know, but any grouping/ranking/chart has SERIOUS holes if that's exactly how a person plays.

[Fnord]

LOL, alright Fnord, I know you don't like those groupings, but let me ask you something, how wrong are they, if I can win pretty easily and consistently in just about every session I play those NL ring games on 3 tables simultaneously?

First, you're beyond hand groupings. Second, the play at the Party full table $25 NL was *amazingly bad* until 6 max came along. When was the last time you got more than 1 full stack to call a pre-flop all-in with less than QQ?

I mean I don't follow any chart religiously, any chart/hand grouping is maybe a starting point for beginners, followed by situational thinking, game theory, you know, but any grouping/ranking/chart has SERIOUS holes if that's exactly how a person plays.

Mostly my complaint is with the treatment of pocket pairs. They are the best implied odds hands in the game, period! Putting them in with A2s is criminal.

My other complaint is that it encourages playing too many hands outside of tournies and 6 max. The biggest problem of NL is that it doesn't punish over-tight players enough. It's far more +EV to play more tables than more hands because it's so easy for an effective odds hand to smack you down (I speak from experience here.) Particularly against poor players that won't adapt to your rock tight play. Every time I revisit the game my playlist shortens.

The CMU rankings are for playing hands in limit where the turn + river get a lot of play. Well played no-limit is very pre-flop and flop centric. In a limit game you can call 1SB on the flop with all kinds of junk and not get punished harshly for it.

http://www.kleptic.com/poker/nlhands.html

[robe43]

This seems like a very interesting discussion that should be broken off?

I would like to see what the guys think about different starting hands and their differences in tournys comapared to NL ring games.

[robe43]

That kleptic thing seems like an interesting ranking but I don't see Rippy's 72o ranked anywhere

[Fnord]

I would like to see what the guys think about different starting hands and their differences in tournys comapared to NL ring games.

In tournies things change big time because there are more chips out there in forced bets and the rising blinds put you on a clock. Furthermore, SnGs rapidly become a short handed game. Position, stacks and players are far bigger factors relative to the two cards that happen to be in your hole.

Once the blinds get big enough, the self-weighted all-in pre-flop chart basically becomes your starting hand groupings. Since often no one has a hand anywhere near the top of that chart... well... Ripptyde can tell you all about that...

[Fnord]

That kleptic thing seems like an interesting ranking but I don't see Rippy's 72o ranked anywhere

Rippy doesn't play that junk. 74o is his baby.

[robe43]

Ah.. gotcha about the starting hands in SNGs and it is back to leverage thing too

yeah is it that Rippy has something nostalgic about 74? I remember it being a good year!!!

[Fnord]

No further comments from ttanaka?

[Xianti]

No further comments from ttanaka?

I split this topic from the original. Maybe he'll come back to it now.

[ttanaka]

Starting hands for SnG's are different for me... I play a little bit tighter and more aggressive early on. I'll play a shorter list of hands and if I play a hand ,I look to come in raising. As the number of players diminish, I open it up a bit, but keep with the aggressive play.

Head-to-head anything goes.

[Fnord]

What hands are you playing when? Does it have much of anything to do with hand rankings?

3rd hand of a NLHE SnG, blinds are a joke. You have pocket 6s UTG. Are you folding that group 6 hand?

10th hand, last one of level 1 so the blinds are still a joke. You're on the button with a shit ton of limpers in front. Would you play QTo? How about A7s? They're both group 5 hands...

[michael1123]

On the button in level 1, I'm definitely playing A7s with a ton of limpers, as long as the post flop game is rather loose and/or passive. If you get a flush draw on the flop and there isn't a big bet on the flop, or enough people call a sizable bet, you're getting correct odds to chase, and could end up winning a huge pot if you hit it, with that many people in. By the same reasoning, I'd even limp in with A2s. The kicker doesn't matter, as you can assume both the 2 and 7 are probably beat by a higher ace.

[ttanaka]

I'll limp in with any one of those hands early.

Depending on position and as the blinds increase, I'll raise with any one of those hands.

And, of course, when the blinds are crazy or heads up, I may go all-in on any of those hands.

[Fnord]

My answers...

3rd hand of a NLHE SnG, blinds are a joke. You have pocket 6s UTG. Are you folding that group 6 hand?

Easy call, fold to a big raise. However, I'm folding most group 5 hands here...

10th hand, last one of level 1 so the blinds are still a joke. You're on the button with a shit ton of limpers in front. Would you play QTo? How about A7s? They're both group 5 hands...

A7s is an easy call. QTo is close depending on how well you think you play post-flop, since it's really easy to make a second best hand with very few outs. However, QTs is a pretty clear call.

Anyway, my point was to illustrate some problems in the FTR hand groupings, not to pose interesting or debateable questions.

[Chicago_Kid]

In full cash games (8-10 players), A7s I would play, QTo I would play if my SB BB have proven wimpy in the past.

On the kleptic hands posted by Fnord, I don't like the mini-pairs being ranked so high. Trips are pretty hard to come by, so unless I have a limpy game with 4 or more callers, I am in position (or both), I will throw away 33/44 a lot. Now, if I get a blind raise, and everyone else calls around, I usually call as well, as my odds are still there.

As was stated previously, I play tourneys much tighter, and 33 go way down my list, unless I'm near the button, the blinds are high, or I'm shortstacked.

[twosevoff]

The Kleptic groupings look pretty good, except for being too tight for my tastes, ranking Axs over suited face cards, and just plain omitting most offsuit 20 and 21 hands. I think more or less all the suited 20 and 21 hands are playable in mid-late position, even for a raise in LP (and I would play JAs and KQs to a raise in MP too). JA and KQ offsuit are very playable in LP in unraised pots as well. Depending on the table and situation, I'd say JQ JK JT and QT offsuit could be limpable or even raisable (for semibluffing/blind stealing purposes) in LP too.

[Fnord]

Yeah, KTs and QTs should be in there.

The Kleptic groupings are very tall stack centric and center around a strategy that avoids reverse implied odds and situations where you're betting the farm on a second best hand. At the Party 50x BB games this becomes a little less important.

Yes it's tight. But when the blinds are a joke and you can run 4 tables I'll argue it's very close to correct.

[Fnord]

On the kleptic hands posted by Fnord, I don't like the mini-pairs being ranked so high. Trips are pretty hard to come by, so unless I have a limpy game with 4 or more callers, I am in position (or both), I will throw away 33/44 a lot. Now, if I get a blind raise, and everyone else calls around, I usually call as well, as my odds are still there.

As was stated previously, I play tourneys much tighter, and 33 go way down my list, unless I'm near the button, the blinds are high, or I'm shortstacked.

Mini-pairs are the BOMB when you can get in cheap (cash game.) However, in a tourney the blinds often get silly so fast they quickly lose their implied odds in most pots. Like I said, this chart is very tall stack and cash centric. Avoiding reverse implied odds like the plague.

For short stack games, the self-weighted all-in hand rankings are a pretty darn good hand ranking system.