MTT final 3 - KK line

[Tubbs]

Hi all,

Been a loooooooong time since I last played, so just five days in to getting back into the swing of things! I've missed cruising FTR for tips, so have a lot of reading up to do...

In the meantime, I have a question from a final table micro MTT at FTP I played recently:

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em Tournament, 3,000/6,000 Blinds 750 Ante (3 handed) - Full Tilt Converter Tool from flopturnriver.com

Hero (Button) (t232,300)
SB (t119,303)
Villain (t857,397)

Hero's M: 20.65

Preflop: Hero is Button with K, K
Hero bets t15,000, 1 fold, Villain raises to t36,000, Hero raises to t231,550 (All-In), Villain calls t195,550

Total pot: t468,350


Villain busted a couple of the other big stacks on the final table and has been playing typical big stack aggressive play, so I'm thinking he's playing a wide range here. I have been fighting back and taking my share; built up from 24,000 shortstack on final table bubble after my aces were cracked, so I'm feeling goooooood!

We've been three-way for three hands. SB has been highly passive for the last 15-20 hands, folding pre- or on the flop and letting the rest of us duke it out. He's folded his way through at least two bust-outs so far.

While playing this hand, I started thinking about whether my all-in push pre-flop was the right play. Normally I'd be fist-pumping at this point, but with blinds still quite low relative to stack I'm not sure whether a stop-and-go or something similar would have been a better play - rather than risk a possible coin flip, give villain a chance to fold on the flop.

My thinking is purely that I'd possibly add a decent amount to my stack, and with the short stack nitting it up and perhaps looking to sneak into second I should concentrate on getting rid of him (jump from third to second money was significant in micro terms!).

Considering the short stack, should we always pump the pot here pre, or is there a better play to be made?

[Pascal]

Super easy get it in, well played.

[Luco]

I like your reasoning but getting it in pre is best imo

[agnesamurphy]

Agreed. You need to play for first here, and Villain and his big stack can easily bully and call light in that spot.

[donkbee]

(now that I know this emoticon exists, may as well use it)

You guys are all nuts. Don't jam. Depending on how the chip leader plays, you should flat or 4bet smaller than all-in.

[Pascal]

(now that I know this emoticon exists, may as well use it)

You guys are all nuts. Don't jam. Depending on how the chip leader plays, you should flat or 4bet smaller than all-in.

haha autopilot response by me, my bad. 4-betting does way better thinking about it properly, our stack is way bigger than I realised relative to the action which has already happened. flatting is also an OK option as long as you're cool playing post flop against him for a relatively big pot

[Luco]

Lol nuts. At least I gave you a reason to bust out your new fave emoticon!

OP: Always listen to donkbee

[Tubbs]

Don't jam. Depending on how the chip leader plays, you should flat or 4bet smaller than all-in.

This is sort of what I was thinking as the hand played. I guess from villain's perspective, I've just gone over the top of him for a huge amount, which means I'm either holding a monster or I'm trying to take it down pf with a huge overbet.

I've been quite aggressive the last few hands so he's probably got me on a moderate range and quite likely looking to steal his reraise. Given he'd be 35:65 with ATC even against a range of 22+, AJs+, AJo+, KQs+ and could easily take the hit if he lost and still have a significant chip lead (plus be more than 10:1 in chips over SB if he won) I could see why it'd be an easy call for him - which means I'm possibly flipping for my stack when I'm not particularly short. Or is my logic flawed here?

Perhaps turn it around - if you were the villain, would you make this call with a wide range?

I also wondered whether this move would be costing value/chips in the long run against a different villain in a similar spot where my ai might get a fold, but a 4-bet to say 80k might get a call with less risk. I'm reasonably confident in my post-flop play, but then again the chance to double up through getting it all in pf is sooo tempting...

I'm still a relative noob and learning hard, and this sort of reason and counter reason ties me up sometimes!

[Sin Uggla]

I am confused... are you considering a call instead of a push because you might be folding on the flop?? <<<get me out this facepump emoticon>>>

Flat call or small 4bet only if you try trapping, and you think he might not call a push.

But then again... you were joking, right?
Oh boy, you had me!
wp!

[donkbee]

Perhaps turn it around - if you were the villain, would you make this call with a wide range?

No I wouldn't because I would be trying to take as many of your chips as possible without going to show down.

[Pascal]

No I wouldn't because I would be trying to take as many of your chips as possible without going to show down.

ja we're maximising fold equity here when we really don't want to be with such a strong hand

[Tubbs]

I am confused... are you considering a call instead of a push because you might be folding on the flop?? <<<get me out this facepump emoticon>>>

Facepump emoticon saved! No, this isn't what I meant!

ja we're maximising fold equity here when we really don't want to be with such a strong hand

Yes, this is part of what I was wondering - so we have better +chipEV in the long run by flatting/4-betting in this situation rather than pushing when we have a moderately large stack compared to bet amounts/blinds, yes?

[joker131]

get it in if u lose to AA, thats poker. more then likley 1 of them got AK, te other big pair

[ddomo]

If shoving looks weak to him based on your table image and the recently deceased players that he has knocked out ... then shove ... ... you don't want him to fold JJ ,TT .. if u 4bet he can probably guess your narrow range ... he can fold with QQ if an ace flops

[rickyt88]

With the 20bb stack in the SB I'd just minraise and 4-bet to 85K then call the shove.

[steelsatin]

WELL i don't think there is anything wrong with getting KK all in before the flop(and knowing you'll get called), someone told me once try not to talk yourself into folding your big hands deep ! i mean kings are good enough win or loose ! it is what it is . joker131 preety much hit it on the head ! my bet would be if you 4 bet he would of got it in anyway!! what actually happened??

[WillburForce]

WELL i don't think there is anything wrong with getting KK all in before the flop(and knowing you'll get called), someone told me once try not to talk yourself into folding your big hands deep ! i mean kings are good enough win or loose ! it is what it is . joker131 preety much hit it on the head ! my bet would be if you 4 bet he would of got it in anyway!! what actually happened??

OP isn't thinking about folding KK pre........he's worried that the over-bet shove is losing value by villain folding. Obv if you have a strong read that villain will likely call lightly, then a shove can be +EV, but any decent villain would have folded to his shove (assuming he's bullying and doesn't have AA).