shit's and giggles.

[jyms]

How not to grind back out of the micros

since Aug 1

[daven]

you should list the 3-5 biggest things that you think you are doing wrong.

[kmind]

jyms - post some stats + hands that come up frequently that you may be a little confused on what the best play is

[jyms]

Biggest issues for me are not playing properly during variance(tilt), button smashing (too many hands), lack of study and not thinking enough during hands. My old habits of playing robotically are very hard habits to break.I will post some stats though soon. I think I need to post my last 50/100K hands. I'm willing to bet there are very few changes in my play over that time.

[jyms]

Since moving back to Stars

[Micro2Macro]

your sb steal success looks pretty high and you're opening somewhat infrequently. I'd focus on spots where you can steal more vs nittier players here because its def a spot you are leaving money on the table.

[kmind]

Since moving back to Stars

What about position stats, cbet% and cbet success%?

I'd cc less preflop and maybe even in general play a tad tighter in early positions depending on your stats. A 30min video would be cool too.

[Icanhastreebet]

VPIP and PFR gap is way too wide for micros. Basically any +eV edge you'd have normally is just getting eaten away by rake so you have to cut cold calling IP out quite a bit. I would say 3b anything you want to play IP and just fold everything else would be a better strategy then cc/3b/fold like you normally would except in obvious spots where there's a huge fish who doesn't overcall 3bs(this usually isn't the case) but will cc a2c

[Alexos]

I'd cc less preflop and maybe even in general play a tad tighter in early positions depending on your stats. A 30min video would be cool too.

This. The CC% is a huge issue. Also steal more from LP/SB.

[Stacks]

This. The CC% is a huge issue. Also steal more from LP/SB.

Regarding CC% and Co/Bu/Sb steal numbers what sort of numbers do you think he should be looking for overall?

[Alexos]

Regarding CC% and Co/Bu/Sb steal numbers what sort of numbers do you think he should be looking for overall?

CC% def below 10, but prob 5% would be optimal for him? That said, the better you are postflop (creativity, hand reading, etc) the more you can afford to just call a wider range pre.

CO/BU/SB : Like bikes mentionned, his SB steal success % seems rly high, so selectively start stealing a lot more and get it up to 50% or so. Steal 90% from players that fold a lot, then just c/f lot of bad flops, until they realize.
CO like 35%, BTN like 60%. But again do it selectively, based on the players in BTN/SB/BB.

*These steal % could be a bit too high if you're not used to having trash that often, so stick to what you're comfortable at and gradually increase these. The only obvious one is to increase the SB steal, based on the success rate it's been getting.

[jyms]

earlier stats

Wow, not cold calling is hard. Particularly when it's such a habit vs bad players that stack off with TP like it's the nuts. I do know a lot of places to work on this that I am still doing it out of bad habits though. I think overall I have taken what's been said and started doing better.

This is since I posted

[bikes]

[03:12pm] [bickes] jyms
[03:12pm] [bickes] cold call % is still way too high
[03:12pm] [bickes] steal numbers look better
[03:14pm] [bickes] and heres not here
[03:14pm] [bickes] annoying

[jyms]

I notice that my VPIP and PFR have got closer as 3bet mentioned which I think is good. What's interesting is in CC'ing less (although still too much) I'm actually playing more hands which is probably from the 3betting more in the blinds and IP not always with hands I would even CC. I need to drop my CC% and keep my 3bet ranges as they are, then my VPIP/PFR should be lower as well. I'm not sure playing 27/24 at the micros is viable over the long term for me and definitly not with a 10% CC

[Icanhastreebet]

CC% def below 10, but prob 5% would be optimal for him? That said, the better you are postflop (creativity, hand reading, etc) the more you can afford to just call a wider range pre.

I really disagree with this. Sure you can play a little wider if you are really good but at micros people just aren't folding in general and you are going to bleed money to the rake.

[daven]

Biggest issues for me are not playing properly during variance(tilt), button smashing (too many hands), lack of study and not thinking enough during hands. My old habits of playing robotically are very hard habits to break.

All things that are within your control and separate from poker theory. Discipline, fewer tables, routine are all relevant here.

Re first set of stats. Call and/or limp behind way less often. Whenever you are about to call pre start to consider folding or 3betting also. Folding preflop isn't as weak or passive as some people think (consider, e.g., how AF is calculated). Post position stats. Steal more. How are you responding vs 3bets? likely calling these too often too.

ow, not cold calling is hard. Particularly when it's such a habit vs bad players that stack off with TP like it's the nuts.

this is really telling. You're calling with speculative hands planning on winning big pots at showdown vs strong ranges a lot, right? Thing is, if they're getting super-aggro with TPTK and anything better then it's going to be hard for you to identify whether your nuttish hands are ahead or behind. I mean, we all fall into the habit of 'yeah, they're bad, i'll call and outplay them postflop', but it's easy to over-estimate how much of a skill edge is present, and to underestimate how much this skill edge is negated by fps and card disadvantage.
Run a few filters based on vpip=true, pfr=false, separating it into card groupings (e.g. 22-66, 77-TT, Axs, scs and 1-gappers, all other shit you are calling with pre) and look at what is happening. I easily remember the 100bb wins when i called with J9s, and forget the 30 times i called and lost between 3 and 25bb, and to over-justify the postflop flip spots with that holding as 'standard' when there were probably better lines available.

Re second set of stats. Your 3b looks pretty high, maybe some of those spots could be folds. Or sample size could be relevant here. It's hard to tell whether you are calling too often as first action preflop without knowing how hem treats calls vs 3bets and/or a call-call line when you flat an open then call the squeeze. You know that there are spots where calling pre is the best decision, aiming to eliminate it entirely seems bad. It's interesting to note what has happened to your flop aggression, probably due to having initiative more often.

[jyms]

I mean, we all fall into the habit of 'yeah, they're bad, i'll call and outplay them postflop', but it's easy to over-estimate how much of a skill edge is present, and to underestimate how much this skill edge is negated by fps and card disadvantage.

This is key to why I have failed at the micros since coming back to poker. The bolded part is a huge issue I know but still don't pay attention to.

[Alexos]

I really disagree with this. Sure you can play a little wider if you are really good but at micros people just aren't folding in general and you are going to bleed money to the rake.

I'm not sure what you're disagreeing with? I mentioned he should prolly cold call 5% or so, then followed it up by a general statement about cold calling - not specific to micros

[Icanhastreebet]

I'm not sure what you're disagreeing with? I mentioned he should prolly cold call 5% or so, then followed it up by a general statement about cold calling - not specific to micros

Didn't think you were talking about 600NL in the micro forum, sorry.

[Alexos]

Didn't think you were talking about 600NL in the micro forum, sorry.

You don't seem to get it. If you are a better player than the avg players at your stake, whichever that is, you can afford to play a looser range IP (which includes cold calling more). It has nothing to do with 25nl or 600nl or 20billion nl. Basically suggesting to Jyms to tighten up a lot with his CC% until he starts getting better and crushing, and then loosen up a bit gradually. Seems pretty relevant to micro stakes imo.

[Icanhastreebet]

You don't seem to get it. If you are a better player than the avg players at your stake, whichever that is, you can afford to play a looser range IP (which includes cold calling more). It has nothing to do with 25nl or 600nl or 20billion nl. Basically suggesting to Jyms to tighten up a lot with his CC% until he starts getting better and crushing, and then loosen up a bit gradually. Seems pretty relevant to micro stakes imo.

You mean to tell me a better player can play more hands profitably then a worst player? Mind blown! I was simply stating that if we compare player X to player Y where player X has P edge at 600NL then at 25NL player X will have a smaller edge than at 600NL due to rake. It's not that difficult to comprehend.

Therefore like I said in my earlier post we can say most players should avoid coldcalling as much and focus on 3bing(since no rake is paid).

If player X has P edge when he cold calls v player Y at 600NL with 98s and Q edge when he 3bs it P may be > Q at 600NL but at 25NL Q may be > P. It's not difficult, really.

[jyms]

All I know is it's great to see a few higher stakes posters in the BC posting about differences. Thanks for the comments guys.

Something 3bet said was very interesting that I haven't ever seen put into words before and is exactly what I was trying to find earlier when searching for clues to beat the rake at the micro stakes.

most players should avoid coldcalling as much and focus on 3bing(since no rake is paid

I think that this might be something I was missing in my thought process as to why I was calling so much as opposed to 3bet/folding most hands I CC.

As Alexos is talking about, I am confient in my postflop abilities vs any decent player at any stakes $100NL and down. But there are inherent problems built into the micros that need to be addressed. Rake, and a huge difference in FE vs most players.

[eugmac]

you forgot the second apostrophe in the title

"shit's and giggle's"

[bikes]

you forgot the second apostrophe in the title

"shit's and giggle's"