5NL FR preflop spot with QQ

[daviddem]

MP1 is 16/11 over 108 hands
CO is a 62/5 fish over 42

The CO's 3b-shove doesn't mean much, they do that with any decent A, pocket pair or broadways when they have lost almost all their stack.

I have MP1 on something like 22-JJ,AJs+,KQs,AQo+

4b or not 4b?

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (8 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

saw flop

Hero (UTG) ($5.07)
UTG+1 ($8.36)
MP1 ($4.90)
MP2 ($8.30)
CO ($0.70)
Button ($3.02)
SB ($4.04)
BB ($4.93)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with Q, Q
Hero bets $0.20, 1 fold, MP1 calls $0.20, 1 fold, CO raises to $0.70 (All-In), 3 folds

Hero?

[Robb]

I guess I don't understand the question. You're asking if Hero should flat the CO's shove, play QQ in a $2 pot (with only 2x pot left behind) oop postflop against a decent player?

[daviddem]

OK, my concern was more that when I 4b, I am going to fold almost all his worse hands, barring maybe AK which I am flipping with. But you're right I didn't want to be in the situation you described so I did 4b.

So how do you size the 4b? Or do you just shove?

[couriermike]

I think you could play it either way. If you call, you're oop and might have to fold if an overcard falls, but you're crushing MP1's range right now and have the CO in there as overlay kinda. On the other hand, shoving traps MP1's call as dead money, and you get all-in when your equity is at its highest, but in a smaller pot. So either is fine, but I'd probably shove.

I think shoving is better than 4-betting because you're oop with a big pair. You don't really mind getting it in preflop and you don't mind if he folds, that avoids an iffy 3-way showdown. But if he flatted and an overcard came, that would suck.

[Robb]

shovel

[mrhappy333]

Fistpump shove

[daviddem]

Well I raised to $2.30, he shoved over, I called and he shows KK... made a note.

[Robb]

Well I raised to $2.30, he shoved over, I called and he shows KK... made a note.

Imagine how painful it would have been to lose all your money street by street instead of in one quick and easy flop transaction.

On a more serious note, I think you played it right if you got all the chips in on the flop, or got enough in that you were committed to getting 'em all in on the turn. I don't think I'm ever getting away from this hand without villain turning his hand face up half way through the betting.

[oskar]

idk if his call is something particularly noteworthy, and I don't agree with the range you give him. Some guys are suprisingly competent even at these stakes. Given his preflop stats and assuming that he is somewhat positionally aware I wouldn't put AQo, KQs in his range. Without reads I would not think that he has a 3-betting range in that position and not the other way around: if I see that guy 3-bet an UTG open by some tag reg, that's when I make a note regardless of whether or not the hand goes to showdown or not cos I would think it's more interesting for him to have a 3-betting range than not to have one.

If I'm not making myself entirely clear I wouldn't mind elaborating cos I think it's a kind of interesting spot. Maybe it's more common to 3b KK+ regardless of everything at 5NL so I could be wrong on that.


I think his range is more likely to be something like 66+, 56s-JTs AJs+ AKo. call 4b range: KK+,AK.
I think calling preflop is a lot better for one simple reason and that is that MP1 will play very face up. You can fold if MP ships cos shipping AK would require some unexpected sophistication and it's at least weighted against. You can expect him to play very face up in a dead pot. You can lead the flop very small for protection/value and you'll almost never get bluff raised. You can continue betting small or c/f safely on the turn and river.

There is no rule that you have to bet half the pot or more in NLHE - especially not in dead pots.

[!Luck]

4 bet the mps range rarely has KK. Most tags at 5nl that I came across would 3 bet KK. I prefer 4 bet than shove since it allows the mp to do something dumb like shove over with tt-JJ.

[Robb]

4 bet the mps range rarely has KK. Most tags at 5nl that I came across would 3 bet KK. I prefer 4 bet than shove since it allows the mp to do something dumb like shove over with tt-JJ.

I like this line tons better than flatting oop.

[daviddem]

Oskar are you saying that it would be wrong from MP1 to 3b w/ KK vs my open? Why?

[oskar]

If you 3b an utg open from mp1 your 3b range looks exactly like KK+ and that's very likely all that you 3b, so UTG can play perfectly. There are a bunch of players behind who haven't got auto top-off on so they're probably fish and you want them in the hand.

You cannot value 3b <QQ, AQ cos UTG's likely calling range is QQ+,AK and you can't 3b bluff cos of how many players are left to act.

The further you move into LP you can start mixing in 3b bluffs (esp against regs with low positional awareness) and can therefore 3b wider for value.
Even if UTG will setmine oop or something retarded like that, I would still rather see a mw flop with someone who will stack off when he flops TP with Q8s.

[daviddem]

OK so if as you say UTG's likely calling range is QQ+, AK why is it so wrong to 3b KK for value, since a tight UTG's opening range is maybe TT+,AK,AQs? TBH I see it regularly that they call the 3b with lower PP than QQ to set mine.

Is it really OK to flat KK here and have 2-3 other callers and play a big pair in a multiway pot sandwiched between a UTG raiser and a couple of fishes who have position with "whatever" type of hands? Not sure I would like that.