FR ep open range, KQs vs 66

[daven]

Quote:
Originally Posted by daven
think about which is better to open utg, KQs or 66

I prefer 66, simply because when it hits, it tends to win larger pots, especially in raised pots. KQ has nasty reverse implied odds, the worst that can happen really with 66 is set under set, which is rare. Bottom line is, I don't mind being out of position with a set.

discuss

[!Luck]

KQs if you know how to play.
66 if you don't.

/thread

[spoonitnow]

the worst that can happen really with 66 is missing the flop 88% of the time

fyp

[NightGizmo]

I agree with !luck.

Extracting value from a set OOP is difficult, especially when your perceived range is already very strong and your opponent's range is weak. Any non-spazzy player will know that your UTG range is pretty tight and probably won't pay you off unless they have a hand that beats AA. So that means that you won't win much unless you get lucky and end up against two pair or a lower set (and there aren't many cards lower than 6).

Also, if you miss the flop, your KQs is a much better hand to cbet with than 66. There are many more flops with KQs that will give you overcards to the board, backdoor flushes, and backdoor straights, so if a villain calls you have a chance to improve. With 66, if someone calls your cbet then you are probably screwed and hoping to drawing to 2 outs.

[OngBonga]

Interesting! I realise 66 misses the flop 88% of the time, but then KQs misses, what, 65% of flops? I think these points made will be very significant at higher levels, and believe me I'm taking notice of what you guys say, but I would like to point out that at 2nl I had no problem extracting value from sets oop. 5nl is a little tougher, I'm break-even at the moment as I make adjustments. I'll think about this more tomorrow, I need sleep.

[Micro2Macro]

you'd rather have 66 than KQs for the same reason you don't understand why you should barrel the turn in that AK hand you posted.

once you get around that your opinion will change.

[Icanhastreebet]

Open both hands, end thread

[Icanhastreebet]

Also I'd drop 66 b4 I'd drop KQs in a tough game.

[oskar]

Why would anyone think that 66 is easier to play post flop than KQs?

Compare facing a raise with KQs on K59 vs facing a raise with KK on 59T agaist a 55+, AQo+,AJs+ range. (I cheated cos I talked to daven about this)
It's just a matter of not being a dumbass and knowing when to fold one pair.

That whole domination business isn't nearly as scary as people make it out to be. When you flop TP, there are only 8 combos of tptk that beat you. - or the same as there are with AQ on Axx. That paired with the fact that in low stakes games you'll get called a ton by hands that you dominate + you flop a huge draw more often than a pair flops a set. That makes KQs a way more attractive hand for anyone to play in EP regardless of skill level or whatever.
I open KQs before I open AJs. It's that awesome.

In comparison in microstakes game with unnkown villains who's main flaw is that they call to much, 66 is fairly hard to play profitably oop.

[caddie444]

The postflop value of 66 is too static whereas KQs is not therefore KQs > 66

Fwiw 66 and AJs are not in my standard UTG opening range but KQs is

[daviddem]

Compare facing a raise with KQs on K59 vs facing a raise with KK on 59T agaist a 55+, AQo+,AJs+ range. (I cheated cos I talked to daven about this)

H1: raising combos 55=3, 99=3, AA=6, KK=1, AK=8 total 21 ( although AA and KK should be discounted as they reraise pre most of the time). Fold to all raises.
H2: raising combos 55=3, 99=3, TT=3, AA=6, KK=1, QQ=6, JJ=6 total 28. We are ahead of 12, tie with 1, behind 15. Tough spot.

[oskar]

And if you compare it to AJ: on Jxx there are 15 combos of overpairs. On Axx there are 16 combos of TP with a better kicker.
It can make 1 straight

With KQ on Kxx there are 6 overpairs, 8 combos of tp with a better kicker. On Qxx there are 8 combos of tp with a better kicker and 9 overpairs.
it can make 2 straights

The only thing it has going against it is that it flops a dominated FD about one in 300 or so times. (pulled that out of my ass... depends on average number of callers obviously.)

[daviddem]

Nice one... I think KQs is going to pop its head in my UTG range...

[OngBonga]

"Why would anyone think that 66 is easier to play post flop than KQs?"

At 2nl, against certain people, being oop with a set is preferable! Some people will triple barrel with air ip, but not oop, especially on a two-tone flop HU. Being oop sucks nearly all of the time, but occasionally it can be the reason you get paid off. Well, certainly at 2nl, I can't speak of the higher levels.

I'm not playing 2nl anymore. I've made the step up and I'm not beating my new level yet, so clearly adjustments need to be made.

I have been considering folding small pairs utg at 5nl, not because of problems getting value from sets, but because I'm being 3bet more, and, more to the point, 3bet properly.

There's some interesting points here about AJ vs KQ, also both hands that I just fold utg, suited or not.

"The only thing it has going against it is that it flops a dominated FD about one in 300 or so times. "

Meh, compare that to set under set probabilites. It's so unlikely that it can be pretty much disregarded.

I got no problem letting go of top pair with KQ if it gets too much heat, so maybe I'll look at adding it to my opening range utg, if only to widen it slightly so I'm not just playing premium hands and pairs in this position.

Thanks for this thread, by the way.

[OngBonga]

you'd rather have 66 than KQs for the same reason you don't understand why you should barrel the turn in that AK hand you posted.

once you get around that your opinion will change.

Which hand are you referring to M2M?

[Razvan729]

think is easy.... 66 hit set is ok,if board doesnt give straight., flush you the man.... but opp must be on tptk to get payd.

KQ, you may hit 2 pair, straight, flush... so you get more chances, but here is also needed max attenttion to board...
both hands are great in the good conditions

[philly and the phanatics]

Not only is KQs going to flop more draws, but its goign to flop a fuck ton of backdoor draws ....like say we have Jh7c2s board and we hold KhQh...we can profitably barrel any K/Q/T/Heart/Ace.... whereas if we hold 66 we can barrel 6's and maybe some A/K/Q's, but barrelling these high cards is not anywhere near as effective when it doesnt give us TP or a gutshot .

[NightGizmo]

Not only is KQs going to flop more draws, but its goign to flop a fuck ton of backdoor draws ....like say we have Jh7c2s board and we hold KhQh...we can profitably barrel any K/Q/T/Heart/Ace.... whereas if we hold 66 we can barrel 6's and maybe some A/K/Q's, but barrelling these high cards is not anywhere near as effective when it doesnt give us TP or a gutshot .

Exactly. And to add more math to prove the point:

With KQs barreling on any A/K/Q/T/Heart, you have:
A (4): pure bluff
K/Q (6): value
T/Heart (14): semi-bluff
Total: 24 cards

With 66 barreling on any A/K/Q/6:
A/K/Q (12): pure bluff
6 (2): value
Total: 14 cards

So you can barrel much more often, and your barrels will prove to be more profitable because you have more equity when called.

[daviddem]

Thanks to Daven and the contributors for posting this. So far I have always been thinking too much about the preflop all-in equity of hole cards and not enough about how good or bad they play postflop. This post will change my perspective.

If you have other examples of how and why some hands play well/bad postflop or heads-up vs multiway, please ship. (How not to get in the sh*t when you consider opening AJ in MP comes to mind, or tough spots with middle PP like JJ-99).

[Icanhastreebet]

Not only is KQs going to flop more draws, but its goign to flop a fuck ton of backdoor draws ....like say we have Jh7c2s board and we hold KhQh...we can profitably barrel any K/Q/T/Heart/Ace.... whereas if we hold 66 we can barrel 6's and maybe some A/K/Q's, but barrelling these high cards is not anywhere near as effective when it doesnt give us TP or a gutshot .

goodpost

[daven]

If you have other examples of how and why some hands play well/bad postflop or heads-up vs multiway, please ship. (How not to get in the sh*t when you consider opening AJ in MP comes to mind, or tough spots with middle PP like JJ-99).

this is similar to the AJ thing
http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...ed-174229.html

[spoonitnow]

People seem to forget that holding 32o on a AAA board is easy to play. That doesn't make it a desirable situation.

[oskar]

Yah, I wus hoping nobody would bring that up.
Still it's not like: Oh you suck at poker, so you probably should fold that.
But anyway... we were just talking about 66, KQ, AJ against a calling range - they are all pretty damn close in equity. Wether they are a fold or not largely depends on how loose the table is.