Hands NOT to play....

[elwood]

Many posts will tell you what hands to play pre flop.

These are hands that shouldn't be played preflop at a full table.

Big little hands, suited or not.
Cards that dont connect as a straight ie: k6, q7, j3. hands like this have no future unless you hit 3 of a kind (not likely).

A9 through a6, although suited helps these hands with less players.
If you hit your ace your kicker sucks. the reason a5 and less (suited is best) are playable is you have more outs to a straight.

im also not a fan of small pps 22 to 66 unless you can get in cheap.

any thing i missed?

[bikes]

ehuehuehue

[JKDS]

You phrase this post as if you know for a fact that these hands shouldnt ever be played, and that you're telling everyone else not to play them.

But in fact, you're wrong. The easiest counter example is holding A9 on the button when its folded to you. Obviously, you would raise this hand in most situations. You likely have the best hand, chance to steal blinds, play in position, etc. However, your original post suggests to always open fold it.

[elwood]

"Poker Forum > Beginners circle"...

this is the basic section right?

"These are hands that shouldn't be played preflop at a full table."

the key is full table, i guess i should have said early position.

"A9 through a6, although suited helps these hands with LESS PLAYERS."

almost any hand is playable when you have position and a good read... if your making a move it sometimes doesnt matter what your cards are.

[JKDS]

First an inquiry: In the beginners circle, do you think it to be important that stated facts are true? Consider policy reasons, such as the effect erroneous details might have on new posters reading the same thread.

Second, it appears you've discovered one of the many essential details that makes general poker allegations false. Namely, position and reads matters when discussing hand strength.

Of course, arent there other essential details as well? Perhaps the difference in table size such as a Full Ring vs a 6max game? Similarly, the difference between a "full table" and a table with several empty seats could matter. Certainly stacks sizes are relevant in this decision.

Lets move past this and get onto a refined example. Suppose, like in your initial and revised post, that we are at full table in early position and were dealt one of these hands. Let us further assume we have 100bb effective stacks, that we are at a full ring table at 2NL, and that we have never played or seen a hand of anyone at the table. Let us also assume that we are UTG instead of UTG+1 or UTG+2, even though these are basically the same.

Now your post might state a valid claim. However, the range of dropped hands isnt complete. Perhaps it is easier to state which hands you would play UTG instead?

Some interesting points that I would work out of you if i had time.
-It matters what you mean by "play" in reference to which hands to play.
-The range you give of hands to fold can very much be expanded. Consider whether AT is playable in the above fact pattern? KJ? 87s? 77? TT? All of these hands are excluded from the sample set you gave, but does that mean they should be played?

Both of the above points could spark healthy discussion.

[eugmac]

^^ I doubt anybody was expecting a response as through as this. Respect.

[Pascal]

Nice post JKDS

[Arjonius]

Poker is a highly situational game where even seemingly basic decisions as to what hands are playable from which seats aren't necessarily the same for all players - not even all beginners since they range from complete neophytes to those who have gained various modest degrees of knowledge and understanding.

And as already noted, there are multiple other considerations to factor in. Poker is far, far more than following hand charts, even in areas such as this one.

[Cobra_1878]

Don't play 72o guys! I've heard it NEVER wins!!

[MadMojoMonkey]

It's seriously a good thing to be making hand charts. Starting hand charts, 3-bet charts, call behind charts... anytime a common situation arises that should have an effect on your range, have a chart for that. KNOW why certain hands are strong or weak in different circumstances. Have a plan for what you'll do with every hand when those situations arise. Modify your plan as you find strengths and/or weaknesses in it.

If you play the same range of hands from EP as you do in MP and LP, then you are seriously failing to understand what "positional awareness" is.

If you are playing small PP's and SC's, S1G's against short-stacked villains, you are probably failing to understand the basics of implied odds.

If you always play Axs to catch a flush, and you don't know how much Villain will stop betting if the scare card hits the board, then your understanding of reverse implied odds needs revision.

Summary:
Always be thoughtful about what you're doing and why. Be dynamic in your ability to adjust your strategy to changing game flow. Different hands play well or poorly depending on Villains' ranges. Being IP or OOP makes a monumental difference in the ability to extract value from hands. Knowing your ability to get the implied odds you need on post-flop streets from a villain makes a huge difference in post-flop playability.

[JKDS]

You guys have no idea how far I'll go to avoid studying for a final.

[Pascal]

MMM - it would be good for beginners' to make three charts. One for vs unknowns, one for vs nits and and one vs lags. Especially helpful for push/shove in tournaments.

[elwood]

First an inquiry: In the beginners circle, do you think it to be important that stated facts are true? Consider policy reasons, such as the effect erroneous details might have on new posters reading the same thread.

i guess my ignorance is showing... no more posts pretending to know something i obviously dont.

Second, it appears you've discovered one of the many essential details that makes general poker allegations false. Namely, position and reads matters when discussing hand strength.

the classic, "it depends" answer...


-It matters what you mean by "play" in reference to which hands to play.

i guess i meant either open raise or call a raise. limping would be bad if you would fold to a raise. reraising with out knowing your opponents tendencies would get you stacked in a hurry


-The range you give of hands to fold can very much be expanded. Consider whether AT is playable in the above fact pattern? KJ? 87s? 77? TT? All of these hands are excluded from the sample set you gave, but does that mean they should be played?

Im more of a tournament player than full ring, but with that said against unknown opponents i would be careful as to which hands to play until i have some idea as to how each plays.

no matter what i need to study more...

[MadMojoMonkey]

No more posts pretending to know something I obviously don't.

That's an over-correction. Try to have some humility about your own understanding, though. It is difficult to learn something when you think you already know it.

Your motivation for creating a thread in the BC should be to increase your own knowledge. Other people will learn by the discussion that ensues.

[spoonitnow]

First an inquiry: In the beginners circle, do you think it to be important that stated facts are true? Consider policy reasons, such as the effect erroneous details might have on new posters reading the same thread.

i guess my ignorance is showing... no more posts pretending to know something i obviously dont.

Second, it appears you've discovered one of the many essential details that makes general poker allegations false. Namely, position and reads matters when discussing hand strength.

the classic, "it depends" answer...


-It matters what you mean by "play" in reference to which hands to play.

i guess i meant either open raise or call a raise. limping would be bad if you would fold to a raise. reraising with out knowing your opponents tendencies would get you stacked in a hurry


-The range you give of hands to fold can very much be expanded. Consider whether AT is playable in the above fact pattern? KJ? 87s? 77? TT? All of these hands are excluded from the sample set you gave, but does that mean they should be played?

Im more of a tournament player than full ring, but with that said against unknown opponents i would be careful as to which hands to play until i have some idea as to how each plays.

no matter what i need to study more...

[bikes]

You guys have no idea how far I'll go to avoid studying for a final.

can always play a game of league imo

[sam1FTR]

Position depends a lot, an opening raise with A9 or even A6 from the cutoff wouldn't be a bad play in my opinion. However, you are right in the sense that you don't want to get into big pots with these cards as you get to the turn and river, as you are likely dominated