this is why i suck at ring

[CorbinDallas]

why do i snap call these fkkin idiots? then i go on tilt and lose 2 more BI's. i hate ring i dunno why i ever play it. i just wish i could understand why i make these calls and why i lose money at 25NL and 10NL but i am a winning tourney player. i fkkin hate ring. do i get to greedy and want to double up to fast? i'm not patient enough? i'm lost i just don't know what my expectation should be or what my mindset should be. should i be happy with 1 buyin in a 2 hour session? 3 buy ins?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (4 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

SB ($15.50)
Hero (BB) ($19.40)
UTG ($6.60)
Button ($10.20)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 3, A
UTG calls $0.10, 1 fold, SB calls $0.05, Hero checks

Flop: ($0.30) 10, 4, 2 (3 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, UTG checks

Turn: ($0.30) 8 (3 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, UTG checks

River: ($0.30) 5 (3 players)
SB bets $0.30, Hero raises to $1, UTG raises to $6.50 (All-In), 1 fold, Hero calls $5.50

Total pot: $13.60 | Rake: $0.65

Results in white below:
Hero mucked 3, A (straight, five high).
UTG had 6, 7 (straight, eight high).
Outcome: UTG won $12.95

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (4 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

BB ($14.50)
Hero (UTG) ($12.60)
Button ($13.75)
SB ($10.20)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with Q, J
Hero raises to $0.40, 2 folds, BB calls $0.30

Flop: ($0.85) Q, 6, 8 (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $0.60, BB calls $0.60

Turn: ($2.05) 2 (2 players)
BB checks, Hero checks

River: ($2.05) 4 (2 players)
BB bets $1.90, Hero calls $1.90

Total pot: $5.85 | Rake: $0.25

Results in white below:
BB had K, 5 (flush, King high).
Hero mucked Q, J (one pair, Queens).
Outcome: BB won $5.60

You should be happy with making more correct decisions than your opponents. If I lose a buyin or two, but I made the right call, then I should be happy about that.

Hand 1: oh noes, you lost HALF a buyin to a higher straight
you gotta think he's vbetting a rivered set or two pair some of the time or the same straight
the fact that he didn't take a shot at it on the turn with a straight draw + flush draw just shows he's bad

Hand 2: I like the check on the turn and the call on the river although it's hard for him to be vbetting a worse hand, he could still be bluffing a busted straight draw

[a500lbgorilla]

hand 1 is sad face. I used to make these calls before I had a coherent thought process going on in my head. No more, "I'mma do this! *bet get raised* Now I'mma do this!" And you'll be struggling with tilt issues for awhile, probably a huge leak for everyone.

hand 2 is alright but that's really player dependant. Most big bets at low stakes are for value because a lot of people adopt the strategy of trying to out cooler the rest of the table and then get their chips in.

[oskar]

I don't think these two hands are really the problem.
You might be playing too high for your level.
Being successful at tournaments does not neccessarily translate to cash games.
Treat ring games as a different discipline and start fron scratch. Or at least with very conservative br management.

[dranger7070]

The way to beat the micro limits is to just play straightforward ABC poker. Honestly, you don't even have to think about what your opponent has (although obviously u should for practice). Most of the time the players on these levels play so god awful and they only think about the 2 cards in front of them. Just play really TAGG poker and you'll be raping these stakes in no time. Good luck!

[a500lbgorilla]

The way to beat the micro limits is to just play straightforward ABC poker. Honestly, you don't even have to think about what your opponent has (although obviously u should for practice). Most of the time the players on these levels play so god awful and they only think about the 2 cards in front of them. Just play really TAGG poker and you'll be raping these stakes in no time. Good luck!

Step 1: only think about the two cards infront of you.
Step 2: players suck because they only think about the two cards infront of them.
Step 3: ????
Step 4: Profit

[dranger7070]

No no no 500lbgorilla, LOL u misunderstood me. I didnt mean DONT think about their cards, just saying that because almost none of the players at that level do, you dont HAVE to. I obviously still think you should because you need to learn early how to put an opponent on a range of hands and what you should have to beat that range. Sorry if that came out wrong before.

[CorbinDallas]

i think most of my problem is that i'm to impatient. there is real money sitting in front of everyone and i want it now. LOLOLOL!

the other thing is this... i'd rather play for 4-6hours with the possibility of winning $200+ than to play ring and win 3 or 4 buyins.

i guess it just comes down to discipline and tilt control for me. which is kinda like doing homework.

[kb coolman]

i think most of my problem is that i'm to impatient.

I think this is the core problem with all losing/even ring players, regardless of whether or not they're successful tourney players. BUT...I do see how patience can be more of a disadvantage in ring vs. tourney. Increasing blinds creates artificial agression that will either make or break you in the tourney (i.e. you doubled up or busted out). In ring, you bust out and rebuy. You double up, but make a couple of bad plays, you get felted again.

In tourney, you know when you're done. You either won, or you busted out. And you know exactly what you put a risk every time. You don't have that certainty in ring, which is why it is CRUCIAL to play within your BR. You also need to set stop limits, both positive and negative. If I lose 4 BIs, I'm done for the day. Maybe 3 days. If I win 4-5 BI, I'm done for the session. I retire from every table and I take a break. I may stick around if I'm up against a table full of total donks, and they're just handing me money, but that doesn't happen very often. I leave when I'm way up becuase of one reason only: TO MAINTAIN DISCIPLINE. Going on a major heater will induce illutions of granduer, and you can easily forfeit all the money you worked so hard for in a matter of minutes. I speak from experience. I've found that when I'm heavily stacked at a table, I tend to make more calls and take more risks because 'I've got him covered', or 'I just can't lose today.' I doubt this is a problem for advanced players, but for a low-limits guy like me, it's a constant struggle.

[hagscel]

jepp, i think patience is the major key concept. try to see in another way:
you sit down at a table (5/10 cent) with a ten $ stack, (wait till the big blind comes around!!!!) for three orbits. Let`s assume you manage to steal the blinds twice within these orbits (net is - 15 cent) and once you pick up a pair of queens in middle position, one limper in front of you, raise it to 5xbb, getting one caller in late position, the limper calls.
On the flop (dry, unscary) you take down the pot with a 2/3 potsize c-bet.(net +1,25$). you get off the table when its your turn for the big blind again, with a net profit of 1,10$, 11 times the bigblind, 5.5 ptBB/30 hands (18.33/100 hands).

i guess you shouldn`t feel to bad about the result!!

hags

[CorbinDallas]

here's my problem... $1.10... wheeeeeeeeee heeeeeeeeeee!

[dranger7070]

Yea hagscel that works i guess... but thats such a SLOOW way to go about it. Why would you only play one hand for a net profit of $1.10. Yeehaw you made 1/10 of a BI lol. Stick around. Keep playing tight like you are saying (heck thats how i play) usually what i do is wait until i am up 3/4 to a full BI up then i take a break and find a new table.

[hagscel]

oki,oki,oki, its a drastic example. what i tried to pint out is simply this:


18.33 ptBB/100 hands. >>>>> 1.10$

[jackvance]

I leave when I'm way up becuase of one reason only: TO MAINTAIN DISCIPLINE. Going on a major heater will induce illutions of granduer, and you can easily forfeit all the money you worked so hard for in a matter of minutes. I speak from experience. I've found that when I'm heavily stacked at a table, I tend to make more calls and take more risks because 'I've got him covered', or 'I just can't lose today.' I doubt this is a problem for advanced players, but for a low-limits guy like me, it's a constant struggle.

I have this too exactly. I think it has to do with a mindset of going for instant gratification, or maybe it's an emotional tendency you can't do much about. Well I hope I can improve on this for me personally, it's costing me..

[mcatdog]

Have you ever posted a thread where the results aren't included in the OP?

[spoonitnow]

Pro Tip: Read the stickies.

Don't show the results of the hand.

http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...ds-t76748.html

[bigspenda73]

guys he's just looking to complain about taking coolers/beats

he'll continue to be the type of poker player we all love, the one that isn't any good but thinks he is, and slowly donates to the regulars.

[CorbinDallas]

LOL. are you serious?

despite my whining i think these are valid questions.

do i get to greedy and want to double up to fast? i'm not patient enough? i'm lost i just don't know what my expectation should be or what my mindset should be. should i be happy with 1 buyin in a 2 hour session? 3 buy ins?

[kettleofish]

They are the wrong questions, the answer to all of which is basically 'maybe'.

[CorbinDallas]

please explain why they are wrong questions.

granted, these aren't technical questions. but mindset, psychological and emotional factors are all part of the game. perhaps more for some than others but they are still factors.

hearing what others expectations are... or how they psychologically approach ring, helps me get fresh perspective on where i need to improve in my ring game.

[kettleofish]

Okay, a question to get you thinking a little then:

1) If you finished a session up 4 buyin's but did so by consistently getting your money in badly, should u be happy? If yes, why? If no, why? And really think about that why (since the answer to the question is pretty obvious).

[CorbinDallas]

you are not playing good poker if you are winning by getting your money in bad. you may win some in the short run... one 2 hour session. but in the long run you are going to get pwned if you keep making the same decisions you made when you got it in bad.

thats pretty basic bro.

[kettleofish]

Indeed it is, and yet by asking 'should I be happy with 1 buyin in a 2 hour session' you totally ignore the point of that pretty basic concept. You should be happy if during the course of a session u consistently made good, correct decisions. The amount u have won/lost is irrelevant.

I'm not for a minute suggesting u should become some sort of zen master that floats above his computer chair and types in bet sizes using positive expectation vibes. Obviously losing sucks, get sucked out on sucks and tilt happens etc etc, but if u are going into a session thinking about how many buyins you have to win in order for the session to be worthwhile, you are gonna make mistakes.

[CorbinDallas]

good reply.

once in a while i need fresh perspective from people in the same boat.

see pic.

[jackvance]

A nice goal is to go for 5ptBB/100 winrate.. in that case you're expected to make one buyin every 3 hours.

[CorbinDallas]

per table?

[spoonitnow]

you are not playing good poker if you are winning by getting your money in bad. you may win some in the short run... one 2 hour session. but in the long run you are going to get pwned if you keep making the same decisions you made when you got it in bad.

thats pretty basic bro.

This isn't necessarily true. Can you figure out a case when you ARE playing good poker if you got your money in bad?

[CorbinDallas]

when you are playing your opponent... making a solid read/bets... counting on him folding or your outs.

and in situations where MOST of the time your hand is gonna be good but your opponent flopped the nuts vs your set.... or your set of 9's beaten by a set of J's.

for example... your playing 25NL vs a loose insane donk maniac who sat down with $10 and now has $40... his stats are 70/45/8. you flop TPTK vs him and all the money goes in on the turn. he turns over two pair he made on the turn. the same guy is gonna stack of with many hands you dominate. folding in that situation is -EV in the long run.

is that close?

[Ragnar4]

oh oh oh, I know this one.

[jackvance]

per table?

Ah yeah I forgot to mention that is based on 4-tabling.

If you play 4 tables, at about 80 hands per hour per table, that is 320 hands per hour. So a winrate of 5ptBB/100=10bb win per 100 hands, so after 3 hours you will have won 96bb, or almost a buyin.

That means at 10NL you can be expected to win $10 per 3 hours, or about $3.33 per hour if you 4table. (so to answer your question, that is over all tables, not per table)

Now if you are killing the game, you might be able to get 10ptBB/100 ($6.66/hour) or 15ptBB/100 ($10/hour) winrates, but I don't think it's possible to run better than that over a long stretch of hands unless you are running hot - even if you totally outclass the opposition, you can't really do better by the sheer mathematical virtue of getting outdrawn, not having the best hand, etc.

[spoonitnow]

when you are playing your opponent... making a solid read/bets... counting on him folding or your outs.

and in situations where MOST of the time your hand is gonna be good but your opponent flopped the nuts vs your set.... or your set of 9's beaten by a set of J's.

for example... your playing 25NL vs a loose insane donk maniac who sat down with $10 and now has $40... his stats are 70/45/8. you flop TPTK vs him and all the money goes in on the turn. he turns over two pair he made on the turn. the same guy is gonna stack of with many hands you dominate. folding in that situation is -EV in the long run.

is that close?

Yep. In more general terms, you could say when you're +EV against your opponent's range but happen to be -EV against his hand.

[Pelion]

folding in that situation is -EV in the long run.

folding is never -EV

[CorbinDallas]

folding in that situation is -EV in the long run.

folding is never -EV

if you are ahead of your opponents range but not his hand THIS time... and you allow that instance to convince you to fold the next time you are ahead of his range... ie you are thinking "he had it last time he MUST have it this time" then you will fold when you shouldn't. and you will lose in the long run.

right?

[Erpel]

why do i snap call these fkkin idiots? then i go on tilt and lose 2 more BI's. i hate ring i dunno why i ever play it. i just wish i could understand why i make these calls and why i lose money at 25NL and 10NL but i am a winning tourney player. i fkkin hate ring. do i get to greedy and want to double up to fast? i'm not patient enough? i'm lost i just don't know what my expectation should be or what my mindset should be. should i be happy with 1 buyin in a 2 hour session? 3 buy ins?

Seeing as I can recognize myself on bad days in this I don't even need to read the hands to reply.

Yes, you get greedy - and it's costing you money. You end up playing hands you should fold and continuing in hands when you should fold.

The time when you have a desperate craving need or want for doubling up fast creates a situation where you are most likely to spew off a stack.

Yes, you're not patient enough.

You put your finger on it when you say that you do not know what your expectation should be. The problem is that you think that it is reasonable to expect anything. It isn't. It's akin to being results oriented.

Now, I don't know how many tables you play and I don't know the fancy maths that can give you a mathematical expectation, but if you run some searches on FTR you might find some actual examples of people who have made these calculations - and here's the kind of thing you will find.

Let's say you beat your level at an average of 5 ptbb/100 hands - that's 1000 hands per buyin. If you play 75 hands per table per hour and you play 4 tables that's 3 hours 20 minutes per buyin. On average.

That average becomes meaningful when considering not tens but hundreds of thousands of hands. A two hour session with this measure should average 0.6 of a buyin.

Working with historic data and probabilities you can do some calculations and probably tell you that while the average may be 0.6 buyins in two hours it's all random and any single two hour session is 95% likely to be between -3 and +4.2 buyins. Or numbers in that ballpark. That's normal and to be expected. And remember that means that 5% of all 2 hour sessions will either be less than -3 or more than +4.2 buyins. So don't be surprised when it happens - and don't congratulate yourself too much if it's on the positive side - the negative side is just as likely to occur.

In simple terms - setting expectations for yourself is just setting yourself up to be disappointed - and to put yourself on tilt.