Fold the AA preflop?

[deacon_bluez]

This post from the Robb's Rant thread made me think of this situation I had in the past week (25NL). First the quote, then the question.

i have one to add. Stop makeing pointless bluffs and plays that have no chace. Example your are in lp and it's raised 3 times befor ot gets to you. You have K/10 off and even if you shove every one will be geting over 2-1 to call. Just throw the damn hand away. Your hand is crushed 99 percent o of the time and your fold equity is nearly 0 Yet i see people mindlessly hit the all in button all the time. I see people limp utg only to shove with a hand like Kq or a small pair after 2 or more players have raised and put 60 percent of their stacks in the pot

My situation was similar, but I was dealt AA on the button. I quit drooling, though, by the time the action got to me. Someone had raised to 8x from UTG, and the bet got 3 callers! So now action is on me with a pot of $8 or so. Normally I would push, but was painfully aware of how often AA gets cracked in a 3 or 4 or 5 way pot. Two of the others were full stacks or more, I think another was around half, and the other a shorty, so I thought my push would get several callers. I thought that even one caller would create pot odds that would be pretty enticing for the rest. I thought quite a while about this before making a rushed call.

The result was that only one folded. I got lucky and caught a set, and I needed it to beat 2 pair. Scooped a very nice pot, but I still have a nagging feeling that I misplayed that hand. Does it make sense to fold AA on the button preflop?

[Warpe]

no

If I have AA pre and think several people are calling my shove, I'm sticking my chips in happily.

Edit: Also, I'm of the opinion that people starting "fold AA preflop?" threads should have their teeth drilled without anaesthetic while being forced to listen to Celine Dion.

[Jibalob]

If you even considered folding for a single second, stop whatever you are doing, pick up the nearest poker-book and read the section on expected value before you even consider playing another hand of poker.

I'm sorry that I have put it so bluntly but if you have been registered here since Nov 06 and are asking a question like this I thik you really need to start again from the beginning.

Edit: It would be correct to fold AA preflop in only one or two very very specific circumstances when it comes to cash games but I'm not even going to go into it because there is probably < 0.00001% chance of it happening in your lifetime,

[REDBRG]

I would think it doesn't matter how many people are going to call your shove, if you have AA, you have a better chance than everyone else. In other words, the more callers, the less chance you have of taking it, but the more $$ you could win. +EV no matter what, right?

[REDBRG]

If you even considered folding for a single second, stop whatever you are doing, pick up the nearest poker-book and read the section on expected value before you even consider playing another hand of poker.

I'm sorry that I have put it so bluntly but if you have been registered here since Nov 06 and are asking a question like this I thik you really need to start again from the beginning.

Lol... i didn't see your reply, as we were typing at the same time... that's pretty much it, right?

[Jibalob]

Lol... i didn't see your reply, as we were typing at the same time... that's pretty much it, right?

Pretty much

[Ash256]

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO


Of course it's possible (even likely!) that your AA is going to get cracked if you get it in multiway, but who cares! It's poker. It's investment. You're getting all your money in with a nice slice of equity - if you're too scared to get your money in with the nuts then poker's not the game for you.

[CoccoBill]

21,319,459,200 games 35.004 secs 609,057,799 games/sec

Board:
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 83.308% 73.51% 09.79% 15672826080 2088028800.00 { AA }
Hand 1: 03.338% 01.02% 02.32% 217818720 493902144.00 { QQ+, AKs, AKo }
Hand 2: 03.338% 01.02% 02.32% 217818720 493902144.00 { QQ+, AKs, AKo }
Hand 3: 03.338% 01.02% 02.32% 217818720 493902144.00 { QQ+, AKs, AKo }
Hand 4: 03.338% 01.02% 02.32% 217818720 493902144.00 { QQ+, AKs, AKo }
Hand 5: 03.338% 01.02% 02.32% 217818720 493902144.00 { QQ+, AKs, AKo }

Ya clear fold.

[bode]

lol

[kmind]

I don't fold at all but cocco's range is flawed

[jyms]

I don't fold at all but cocco's range is flawed

Yea, throw some random PP's and SC in there. AA won't be that far ahead.

Hand 0: 42.054% 35.43% 06.62% 1777135 332005.40 { AA }
Hand 1: 13.797% 10.64% 03.16% 533680 158263.40 { TT+ }
Hand 2: 13.459% 13.11% 00.35% 657293 17740.40 { JTs }
Hand 3: 15.413% 11.56% 03.85% 579954 193088.90 { JJ+ }
Hand 4: 15.277% 15.24% 00.03% 764476 1746.40 { 77 }

[Jibalob]

21,319,459,200 games 35.004 secs 609,057,799 games/sec

Board:
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 83.308% 73.51% 09.79% 15672826080 2088028800.00 { AA }
Hand 1: 03.338% 01.02% 02.32% 217818720 493902144.00 { QQ+, AKs, AKo }
Hand 2: 03.338% 01.02% 02.32% 217818720 493902144.00 { QQ+, AKs, AKo }
Hand 3: 03.338% 01.02% 02.32% 217818720 493902144.00 { QQ+, AKs, AKo }
Hand 4: 03.338% 01.02% 02.32% 217818720 493902144.00 { QQ+, AKs, AKo }
Hand 5: 03.338% 01.02% 02.32% 217818720 493902144.00 { QQ+, AKs, AKo }

Ya clear fold.

Now try AA vs AA vs KK vs QQ vs JJ vs TT vs 22 vs 33 vs 44

[eugmac]

Fold the nuts? huh?

Poker isn't about winning pots, it's about making money.

[GatorJH]

Now try AA vs AA vs ....

If this was your situation and you still flopped a set we will need to start an inquisition.

[eugmac]

Edit: It would be correct to fold AA preflop in only one or two very very specific circumstances when it comes to cash games but I'm not even going to go into it because there is probably < 0.00001% chance of it happening in your lifetime,

Ok seriously, don't hold out on us... I'm dying to hear what it could possibly be.

Edit: Ok I'm gonna take a wild guess. You've sat down with 100% of your bankroll, which means all the money you have in the world. Your opponent is Teddy KGB, and if you lose this stack, you're gonna get killed, 'cause you owe Teddy KGB the cash that you have in front of you. Preflop, Teddy KGB raises, and you have AA. You 3-bet, he comes over the top. He eats his Oreo. Now you're sure he also has AA, and you are tying at best, and if you lose to a flush you die.

So you should fold AA here.

[Jibalob]

Edit: It would be correct to fold AA preflop in only one or two very very specific circumstances when it comes to cash games but I'm not even going to go into it because there is probably < 0.00001% chance of it happening in your lifetime,

Ok seriously, don't hold out on us... I'm dying to hear what it could possibly be.

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 02.667% 00.06% 02.60% 174 7247.67 { AcAd }
Hand 1: 08.437% 05.83% 02.60% 16230 7247.67 { AhAs }
Hand 2: 22.166% 22.13% 00.03% 61586 92.67 { KcKd }
Hand 3: 17.619% 17.59% 00.03% 48932 92.67 { QcQd }
Hand 4: 14.441% 14.41% 00.03% 40090 92.67 { JcJd }
Hand 5: 13.319% 13.29% 00.03% 36968 92.67 { TcTd }
Hand 6: 04.919% 04.89% 00.03% 13594 92.67 { 2c2d }
Hand 7: 06.620% 06.59% 00.03% 18328 92.67 { 3c3d }
Hand 8: 09.812% 09.78% 00.03% 27210 92.67 { 4c4d }

[eugmac]

Edit: It would be correct to fold AA preflop in only one or two very very specific circumstances when it comes to cash games but I'm not even going to go into it because there is probably < 0.00001% chance of it happening in your lifetime,

Ok seriously, don't hold out on us... I'm dying to hear what it could possibly be.

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 02.667% 00.06% 02.60% 174 7247.67 { AcAd }
Hand 1: 08.437% 05.83% 02.60% 16230 7247.67 { AhAs }
Hand 2: 22.166% 22.13% 00.03% 61586 92.67 { KcKd }
Hand 3: 17.619% 17.59% 00.03% 48932 92.67 { QcQd }
Hand 4: 14.441% 14.41% 00.03% 40090 92.67 { JcJd }
Hand 5: 13.319% 13.29% 00.03% 36968 92.67 { TcTd }
Hand 6: 04.919% 04.89% 00.03% 13594 92.67 { 2c2d }
Hand 7: 06.620% 06.59% 00.03% 18328 92.67 { 3c3d }
Hand 8: 09.812% 09.78% 00.03% 27210 92.67 { 4c4d }

Ok, so I was wildly wrong. But I think my situation is also one where you should fold AA. This is fascinating...

[deacon_bluez]

I don't fold at all but cocco's range is flawed

Yea, throw some random PP's and SC in there. AA won't be that far ahead.

Hand 0: 42.054% 35.43% 06.62% 1777135 332005.40 { AA }
Hand 1: 13.797% 10.64% 03.16% 533680 158263.40 { TT+ }
Hand 2: 13.459% 13.11% 00.35% 657293 17740.40 { JTs }
Hand 3: 15.413% 11.56% 03.85% 579954 193088.90 { JJ+ }
Hand 4: 15.277% 15.24% 00.03% 764476 1746.40 { 77 }

Actually, this is pretty close to the actual hand. I'm not at home right now, so I don't have access to the HH, but I do remember that UTG was QQ, there was a JTs, and the other two were middle pairs.

I do see the logic of Ash256:

Of course it's possible (even likely!) that your AA is going to get cracked if you get it in multiway, but who cares! It's poker. It's investment. You're getting all your money in with a nice slice of equity - if you're too scared to get your money in with the nuts then poker's not the game for you.

It's kinda what I was thinking when I made the call.

My apologies if this thread has been covered. It was such a strange situation at the time that I assumed it had not been. (Otherwise I would have done a search for a similar thread.) I only check in here about once a week or so and did not remember it. And true, it probably never will happen quite like that again. Sorry if it was a waste of your time.

I would caution all (if it matters to you) not to autoflame members who have a sincere question.

[viledge_idot]

DO NOT GO ALLING WITHOUT TO SEE THE FLOOP!

[Jibalob]

Actually, this is pretty close to the actual hand. I'm not at home right now, so I don't have access to the HH, but I do remember that UTG was QQ, there was a JTs, and the other two were middle pairs.

And somebody else with AA? Thats a pretty crucial part of the example I've shown above.

Also, even if you found yourself in this EXACT situation, folding would still be incorrect unless you were on the BB, UTG has open-shoved, everyone else around the whole table has called and then they are all nice enough to turn over their cards and show you what they have! Even now folding may be incorrect due to stack sizes etc etc.

The simple answer - never ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever fold AA preflop in a cash game.

[viledge_idot]

The simple answer - never ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever fold AA preflop in a cash game.

LOL joo art a n00b. A reel palyer know when it is to half to lay teh aces down! If joo art going to lose why is it to put your mobnies in the pot?

[spoonitnow]

The simple answer - never ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever fold AA preflop in a cash game.

LOL joo art a n00b. A reel palyer know when it is to half to lay teh aces down! If joo art going to lose why is it to put your mobnies in the pot?

Nice gimmick account.

Never fold AA preflop in a cash game.

Rarely you should fold AA in certain very specific tournament spots that you likely won't see ever in your life.

[viledge_idot]

The simple answer - never ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever fold AA preflop in a cash game.

LOL joo art a n00b. A reel palyer know when it is to half to lay teh aces down! If joo art going to lose why is it to put your mobnies in the pot?

Nice gimmick account.

Never fold AA preflop in a cash game.

Rarely you should fold AA in certain very specific tournament spots that you likely won't see ever in your life.

Joo art biger n00b! I has already to flod teh Aces beforez teh flop een a satuulite on duh bubble when a shawty ees alling und a chipleeeder push alling! I knuwz whun to flod da aces!

[CoccoBill]

I don't fold at all but cocco's range is flawed

Yea, throw some random PP's and SC in there. AA won't be that far ahead.

Hand 0: 42.054% 35.43% 06.62% 1777135 332005.40 { AA }
Hand 1: 13.797% 10.64% 03.16% 533680 158263.40 { TT+ }
Hand 2: 13.459% 13.11% 00.35% 657293 17740.40 { JTs }
Hand 3: 15.413% 11.56% 03.85% 579954 193088.90 { JJ+ }
Hand 4: 15.277% 15.24% 00.03% 764476 1746.40 { 77 }

Yeah 4:1 for our money with 42% equity, terrible.

Now with all seriousness, with AA you'll have to pry my stack off my dead fingers for it to not be in the middle, in any situation not from the twilight zone.

[Ash256]

^^^

[CoccoBill]

^^^

Um...I didn't know being funny was a prerequisite for posting here, my apologies.

[bjsaust]

I think he was talking to the idot

[Ash256]

Soz Bill, I'm slow at posting

[Pelion]

lol.... then wow.... then lol again.

get it in with the best hand...

[Ragnar4]

Aces is one of the few, if only hands, that always retains positive EV no matter how many players you're going to the flop against. Just because you get cracked more often doesn't mean you didn't get your money in good.

Problem is, the more players there are, the more you REALLY want to be AI so that you don't end up making a mistake postflop and rewarding someones bad play.

[littleogre]

don't think i would compare AA to the situation that i described

[givememyleg]

AHHHH I BROKED IT!!!!!!

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: -1.#IO% -1.#J% -1.#J% 0 0.00 { AA }
Hand 1: -1.#IO% -1.#J% -1.#J% 0 0.00 { AA }
Hand 2: -1.#IO% -1.#J% -1.#J% 0 0.00 { AA }
Hand 3: -1.#IO% -1.#J% -1.#J% 0 0.00 { AA }
Hand 4: -1.#IO% -1.#J% -1.#J% 0 0.00 { AA }
Hand 5: -1.#IO% -1.#J% -1.#J% 0 0.00 { AA }
Hand 6: -1.#IO% -1.#J% -1.#J% 0 0.00 { AA }
Hand 7: -1.#IO% -1.#J% -1.#J% 0 0.00 { AA }
Hand 8: -1.#IO% -1.#J% -1.#J% 0 0.00 { AA }
Hand 9: -1.#IO% -1.#J% -1.#J% 0 0.00 { AA }

[yourfather]

Obvious push and fist pump. One question I have is is, what is the optimal amount of players you want all in with you preflop if you could chose? i.e. where do you get max $EV all things considered?

[CoccoBill]

Soz Bill, I'm slow at posting

Oh oops, bad thread read from my part. And I was already ready to bluff-reraise. :P

[spoonitnow]

Obvious push and fist pump. One question I have is is, what is the optimal amount of players you want all in with you preflop if you could chose? i.e. where do you get max $EV all things considered?

I would think it would be against 22 players none of which have either of the two remaining A's in the deck.

[lean86]

If you're folding AA pre-flop then what hands are you going to play?

[DavePA]

No

[littleogre]

If you're folding AA pre-flop then what hands are you going to play?

probably the ultra rare pocket set