2 10NL hands

[inV1NCEble]

Hand 1

Villain 17/14/2 3B: 6% Cbet: 69% (over 303 hands)

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (5 handed) - Party-Poker Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

BB ($10)
SB ($6.74)
Button ($17.75)
UTG ($19.93)
Hero (MP) ($15.73)

Preflop: Hero is MP with K, A
1 fold, Hero bets $0.40, 2 folds, BB raises $1.40, Hero calls $1.10

Flop: ($3.05) K, 9, J (2 players)
BB bets $2.20, Hero calls $2.20

Turn: ($7.45) 9 (2 players)
BB bets $3.75, Hero Folds

PF: AQ+,99+ (he's OOP so he's more inclined to 3bet TT-99)
Flop: Whole range
Turn: AA,KK,JJ,AhQh+

Too nitty?

Hand 2

Vilain no stats LAG, very spewy, saw him shove a few times with bad hands (don't know which though, those reads are on pp, not on pt)

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (6 handed) - Party-Poker Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Button ($14.50)
SB ($12.52)
UTG ($10.68)
Hero (MP) ($10)
CO ($10.51)
BB ($1.55)

Preflop: Hero is MP with Q, A
1 fold, Hero bets $0.40, 1 fold, Button calls $0.40, SB calls $0.35, 1 fold

Flop: ($1.30) 8, A, 8 (3 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $1, Button calls $1, 1 fold

Turn: ($3.30) 6 (2 players)
Hero bets $2, Button raises to $13.10 (All-In), Hero folds

Total pot: $7.30
PF: Ax,Kx,Jxs+,SC,SG (I think he was raising all pp's)
Flop: Ax,8x,xxs,air
Turn: FLUSH,FLUSH,FLUSH!!,8x,Ax,air
Against a flush we have 25% equity.

Even with his image and the fact that he probably has quit a bit of air in his range, it seems like a fold cause his range is still tilted to flushes (or FH's)
I obviousy folded, but I'm wondering if it's a marginal or a very clear one. Comments?

[littleogre]

hand 1 raise flop you have tptk on a wet board. As played though i would fold the turn assuming your read is correct you are way behind his range. Hand 2 is an easy fold as the old call flop c-raise turn is usually a big hand.

[inV1NCEble]

Would the only reasoning behind raising the flop be to protect?

[!Luck]

You raise because you are +Ev against both his betting range and likely his calling range. And with the amount of money in the pot relative to your stack you might as well get it in. But calling is bad, cause you commit to the pot and really you havent narrowed his range by the turn so....

Hand two: Please be so kind as to actually calculate your equity against his range....

[Donachello]

I don't know why you're calling the flop bet and folding to a blank turn. The second 9 doesn't do anything to change the hand whatsoever. If he has 99 then you're beat on the flop anyway. Either raise flop and get it in or fold. Don't put more money in trying to hit what? If you think you're beat now you pretty much have 0 outs so why call?

[inV1NCEble]

To !Luck: I didn't calculate the equity cause I was pretty certain it's a fold, but I'm not sure how much air/marginal hands he has in his range. And since the amount of bluffs makes or breaks his range in this situation, I don't really see how I'm can make a good calculation here. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

To Donachello: Are you saying my ranges aren't good? Because if they're right and he's Cbetting his whole range on the flop he's going to check most worst hands on the turn and bet most better hands.
I also reasoned that he was going to call a raise with better and fold worse. What is wrong with that?

[Carroters]

Hand 1: Folding the turn looks pretty silly tbh. This is a tree-bet pot and you have almost the top of your range. I see no point in calling preflop if you're going to fold TPTK to 1 and a half streets of aggression. Your turn range is too nitty, you haven't even included AK or KQ. There's probably also some light 3-betting hands in there since he's 3-betting 6% so there are other draws or some confused 2nd pair or QQ that could easily play like this.
I'd also much rather just 4-bet pre and get it in. AK does so much better here when you make it's purpose to be an instrument of gaining FE preflop and taking down a nice pot. You're never going to be terrible shape vs his felting range and we just wont flop top pair enough to make calling and playing fit or fold profitable.

Hand 2: I snap. I'm more afraid of a mini raise vs this guy. With your read, he's likely doing this with a ton of worse aces that are "protecting against diamonds" or something retarded like that. Again we're near the top of our range here and our villain is a spew tard, I see no reason to fold.

[XTR1000]

Raising flop in #1 is silly. Folding turn seems about right.

#2 I´d need some sort of a read on him bluff shoving vs a strong range/line to justify a call. Usually I just tilt-call it off tho.

[inV1NCEble]

Raising flop in #1 is silly.

That's what I was thinking

[Donachello]

Raising flop in #1 is silly. Folding turn seems about right.

Explain? How is folding here correct when he bets half pot and the 9 doesn't do anything except fill up hands that are already beating us. If we already know we are beat here why aren't we just folding the flop since if we use the range given by OP we are basically drawing dead against anything but AQ. I could see someone maybe taking this same line with QQ or KQ. I just don't get how folding the turn is right if we call the flop. Obviously if he barrels the river I don't see how you can call. I dunno I'm confused

[inV1NCEble]

The way I see it, the 9 doesn't change anything, the fact he bet's a second street changes everytime (his range to be specific).
Still open for your input though

[rpm]

Raising flop in #1 is silly. Folding turn seems about right.

Explain? How is folding here correct when he bets half pot and the 9 doesn't do anything except fill up hands that are already beating taking this same line with QQ or KQ. I just don't get how folding the turn is right if we call the flop. Obviously if he barrels the river I us. If we already know we are beat here why aren't we just folding the flop since if we use the range given by OP we are basically drawing dead against anything but AQ. I could see someone maybe don't see how you can call. I dunno I'm confused

the idea behind calling flop and folding turn is that he cbets the fkop with enough of of his range for us to call with tptk profitably, but he probably doesn't 2 barrel the part of his range we beat (if he has QQ here he plays pretty bad). similarly with raising flop, assuming villain isn't terrible, he only 3b shoves the part of his range which crushes us, and we are going to be getting a very cheap price to call that shove. however calling keeps the range wide enough. maybe 'im just too passive and/or nitty but hand 1 looks good to me.

[rpm]

if villain 3bets JJ+,AK and cbets all of it:

Board: Kh 9c Jh
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 40.957% 25.28% 15.67% 4756 2948.00 { AsKc }
Hand 1: 59.043% 43.37% 15.67% 8158 2948.00 { JJ+, AKs, AKo }

assuming he doesn't 3b shove flop or 2 barrel with QQ:

Board: Kh 9c Jh
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 25.781% 02.87% 22.91% 370 2948.00 { AsKc }
Hand 1: 74.219% 51.31% 22.91% 6604 2948.00 { KK+, JJ, AKs, AKo }

[bigspenda73]

this thread is the rake, just about everyone in here is thinking about poker incorrectly

[rpm]

what's your take on the hands, spenda?

[eragotte]

hand 1 his betsizing is very relevant, he has left himself like $2 on the river, the turn small bet means he isn't on any kind of draw and likely just filled up since he isnt worried about you chasing now.. i dont mind the cbet call though since he can fire any random shit here... its 10nl and hey tt has a gutshot

hand 2 i call in practice almost every time... especially against this dude... i wouldnt even need that strong a read, his line is gay and we have tpsk and 2nd best fd, he has zero reason to shove a boat and i get the feeling u saying LAG means more like bad.

[surviva316]

hand 1, this board is soaking wet considering villain's PF range, and it takes very few combos of semi-bluffs for us to get proper equity here:

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

12,276 games 0.003 secs 4,092,000 games/sec

Board: Kh Jh 9d 9c
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 57.893% 47.85% 10.04% 5874 1233.00 { KK+, JJ-99, AQs+, KJs+, T9s, 98s, AKo }
Hand 1: 42.107% 32.06% 10.04% 3936 1233.00 { AKo }

i even threw in some hands that dominate us that you didn't think were likely (even though if he has those hands, he prolly has other hands we're ahead of like JTs or Ah2h at least SOME of the time) just to prove a point.

(side note, there was only 6.40 left behind when he made his turn bet, so we only need ~32% equity to profitably stack off here. i'd def shove over, and not just call to get full value from TT type hands)

hand 2, meh. i don't know how often i fold this in the heat of the moment, but i have to play with stove a bit more to give any good answer.

[bigspenda73]

what's your take on the hands, spenda?

there are a lot of different options in both hands that could easily be explained as good decisions. What most people in this thread are doing is applying some sort of preconceived notion to playing poker b/c they're too used to getting in 1,000 hands an hour and auto-piloting interesting spots that they've deemed standard.

[inV1NCEble]

@ Spenda: So what would you do differently and why?
If I'm thinking incorrectly about poker while I think I'm playing good, I'm not going to stop doing that untill someone explains me what I'm doing wrong.

[surviva316]

if i had to guess, i'd say spenda's comments were moreso directed by a bunch of really bad poker rhetoric contained in here like "raise flop, to get information" and "a call commits you to a pot" and "you can't fold 'cause the 9 was a blank" and "you can't call the three bet only to fold TPTK" and so forth (not to specifically call anyone out, i just couldn't think of another way to answer invincible's concerns). in other words, the further the conversation got away from ranges equity, the more muddled it seemed to get...imagine that.

as far as ranges go, putting players with 3b's >3% on ranges in 3b pots is a learning process, and 25nl (at least at FTP and PS) seems to the stake where that learning process really begins for all the regs. and while that learning process is going on, 3b'ing regs have all sorts of different philosophies on 3b'ing, and you just have to try to get a feel for their tendencies. so putting villain on the top 6% of ATC preflop (AQ+, 99+) because he 3b's 6% is actually very accurate for a lot of players, but then there are the types who like to flat 99-JJ but think that hands like KQ are too hard to play OOP, so they 3b those. then there are people with more polarized ranges like J9s, K2s and QQ+, AK (then at higher stakes, a smart villain may have different ranges depending on metagame, like they might start to merge their range after a while). and of course there are regs who resteal non-stop, but there are no other spots in the world where they 3b anything but QQ+, AK.

so aaaaaaaaanyway, the point is that unless you have a very good feel for this particular reg's 3b'ing tendencies, i'd tend to put him on more hands than just AQ+, 99+ and consider that there are at least possibilities of villain having KQ and T9s and so forth and try to weight those possibilities based on reads, postflop line, gameflow, etc

[inV1NCEble]

Ok, I see that