Low Pockets

[Las Vegas King]

When you have a low/mid pocket pair such as 6's, do you call large preflop raises? I have folded to raises a few times and once out of every 3 times I would've caught a set. I usually fold because even though there is a great potential to flop a set, I have to think that that person who raises is sitting on atleast 9's or better. I obviously would play if theres no preflop raises, but if someone raises a couple dollars preflop (we only start out with $15) then 6's don't look too good all of a sudden

[EricE]

You will flop a set about 10% of the time. I'll see about 3xbb to see the flop...then I am outa there.

[drmcboy]

I think I saw somone tossing around a number that was the raise should be 10 % or less of both stacks. Harrington's was stacks should be 20x (maybe 24) the BB. You want to make sure you get paid when you hit.

[ngericl]

WI have folded to raises a few times and once out of every 3 times I would've caught a set.

yea, i hate when that happens. I'll call depending on position, how many others might go to the flop, and relative chip stack of the raiser. The bigger the potential pot, the better it is for you and me. Generally, though, it's a good fold.

[Muxy]

11% to hit a set on the flop. I will call upwards to 4xBB sometimes more if i have position. And will limp from anywhere.

[evman150]

Position doesn't matter post flop when deciding whether to call a preflop raise. It is your position preflop that matters. I will call a sizeable raise with low pairs if I know there will be no more raises behind me. For example if I am in the BB and UTG raises 6xBB, I will call if it is not raised again, unless it's folded around to me, then I have to make a judgement about the raiser, mainly whether he'll stick to his premium hand and pay me off all the way if I hit or whether he'll fold. If there are any callers I'm in there for sure.

Conversely, if I'm two off the button I will not call a sizeable raise, or even a decent raise, for fear of getting shut out of the pot by the people who have yet to act.

Once you get to the flop, it's flop or drop. Unless you get a pretty good flop like 345 rainbow to your 66.

Remember that since you have a pair, if you have a straight draw it is less likely that someone else has a straight since you took out two of their cards to make the straight. You want a flop like 457 rainbow to a pair of sixes.

[Rondavu]

I call almost any preflop raise from a person with a lot of money in front of them if I have a pocket pair. If you hit, you take their stack.

One exception was last night I had 66 in BB. The button raised to 3xBB, and the SB reraised to 6xBB. I dropped my 66, the button called, and the flop came out 667. The SB had 77. I cried like an infant.

[m3laNcholy]

Some times I even re-raise with low PP if I am first to act after his raise if there's a good chance I can get is heads up. Many hands I dont want seeing a flop with me are folding to a raise and a reraise. Unless the raiser had AA/KK and comes over the top (kinda bad) its easy to take the pot on the flop since more often than not his AK/AQ etc will miss and essential I am repping a high PP with the re-raise preflop.
I do that like 1 out of 10 times when facing a raise with a med-low PP and only if the requirements are met (position/reads/stacks).

Usually thought its set of fold and I want as many players seeing the flop as possible.

[Element187]

Some times I even re-raise with low PP if I am first to act after his raise if there's a good chance I can get is heads up. Many hands I dont want seeing a flop with me are folding to a raise and a reraise. Unless the raiser had AA/KK and comes over the top (kinda bad) its easy to take the pot on the flop since more often than not his AK/AQ etc will miss and essential I am repping a high PP with the re-raise preflop.
I do that like 1 out of 10 times when facing a raise with a med-low PP and only if the requirements are met (position/reads/stacks).

Usually thought its set of fold and I want as many players seeing the flop as possible.

i dont like getting the hands heads up with a small pocket pair.. i like just calling to encourage others to call as well to put more dead money in the pot.

when you reraise a preflop raiser, you stand the chance of being reraised again a sizeable amount/and or all in raise .. and you just wasted money.

[Alibi]

Yeah, I dont raise with 22-TT usually . JJ sometimes.

I prefer multiway pots with smaller PP.

Yeah, I dont raise with 22-TT usually . JJ sometimes.

I prefer multiway pots with smaller PP.

JJ is not small, it's middle-higher pair. I'll take JJ every time :)

[outphase]

Let low pockets be a lesson on implied odds. If you know someone's raising with AA strong and you call, if you hit your set, you take their stack, if not, you're out

[evman150]

Let low pockets be a lesson on implied odds. If you know someone's raising with AA strong and you call, if you hit your set, you take their stack, if not, you're out

Unless you get set-over-setted, which has happened to me each of the last two days.

It really sucks to be sitting there with one out.

[MNMP2]

One exception was last night I had 66 in BB. The button raised to 3xBB, and the SB reraised to 6xBB. I dropped my 66, the button called, and the flop came out 667. The SB had 77. I cried like an infant.

CRACK ME UP!!

But any way, I have been going by the rule of <5% stack, call, >10% of stack fold, and in between the two, "IT DEPENDS".

[journey075]

I call almost any preflop raise from a person with a lot of money in front of them if I have a pocket pair. If you hit, you take their stack.

One exception was last night I had 66 in BB. The button raised to 3xBB, and the SB reraised to 6xBB. I dropped my 66, the button called, and the flop came out 667. The SB had 77. I cried like an infant.

interesting note, i had the exact same situation but called cause stacks were ultra deep. flop 66Q. i was against AA and QQ .

[Sed]

both myself and the raiser have to have 15-20x the bet for me to call anything over 4-5xbb... 10% and you are pushing the break even point statistically once you add in the unlikely set over set beats.

- sed

[Checkways]

When you have a low/mid pocket pair such as 6's, do you call large preflop raises? I have folded to raises a few times and once out of every 3 times I would've caught a set. I usually fold because even though there is a great potential to flop a set, I have to think that that person who raises is sitting on atleast 9's or better. I obviously would play if theres no preflop raises, but if someone raises a couple dollars preflop (we only start out with $15) then 6's don't look too good all of a sudden

I usually fold unless the bet is less than 4BB and there are multiple callers. Besides, sets aren't always golden tickets when they do hit. Sometimes you don't get paid off or you get outdrawn.

[Element187]

I call almost any preflop raise from a person with a lot of money in front of them if I have a pocket pair. If you hit, you take their stack.

One exception was last night I had 66 in BB. The button raised to 3xBB, and the SB reraised to 6xBB. I dropped my 66, the button called, and the flop came out 667. The SB had 77. I cried like an infant.

but you still made the right move, folding low pocket pair's to a raise and a reraise is very smart play. chances of the button coming back over the top after you call is too high

[dstir2]

While I usually call 4XBB w/o position, 6Xbb w/ position, if I feel that someone is sitting on a high pair, I make a call P.F. if its 10% or less of my stack (and of course, they have enough money for me to double up.)

The other night, I first tried this method. I was on the button w/ 33 and there was a p.f. raise of 1$ from E.P. (who had aces), and a re-raise of 2.40 which made it $3.40 for me to call. (This is at a .1/.25 nl table). I knew that one of them I could crack if i hit my set, and sure enough, i called, the flop came up 345. Both went all-in, and I won a humongous pot. So for now on, I use the 10% rule, especially, if I think I can break a bigger stack. If its a marginal raise (not representing a high pair), I use the 4-6 rule.

[RERAISE5823]

I call with any pair from any position to any raise provided the raiser has a significant stack. If you are not willing to go broke with a set, you are playing the wrong game.

I will call a reraise with JJ or better every time for the same reason, with a notable exception for the tightest of players and for the maniacs, I push.

[Element187]

I will call a reraise with JJ or better every time for the same reason, with a notable exception for the tightest of players and for the maniacs, I push.

wait you call a raise and a reraise before it gets to you with any pocket pair ??? man you are suicidal.

[Drewbie]

I like to limp from EP as well with small pockets, hoping to get a few limpers.
I find that on 25$NL on party/empire, A lot of people tend to limp in with ANYTHING.

Some of my most profitable hands are when I have low pockets in EP, limp in and flop comes something like (my set)-A-Q.... Now you have all of those limpers with either an A or Q at least calling and you may even get a raiser or 2. Now you know they dont have AA or QQ as no one raised preflop, so as long as you avoid another one, you will very often get paid in this situation.

[Element187]

so as long as you avoid another one, you will very often get paid in this situation.

nonesense, you want someone to make trips when you improve to a boat. thats payday.

[Irisheyes]

so as long as you avoid another one, you will very often get paid in this situation.

nonesense, you want someone to make trips when you improve to a boat. thats payday.

I don't think he was implying that he inproved to a set. He was saying that what you don't want is a set over set situation when you have the lower set.

[naturaltan]

I understand the position and the amount of the bet ... I don't quite understand why the stack amount of the raiser matters. Can someone please explain?

[Drewbie]

Yes, I meant what Irish eyes was saying.
Sorry, I posted that early.... should have been more clear.

[Greedo017]

I understand the position and the amount of the bet ... I don't quite understand why the stack amount of the raiser matters. Can someone please explain?

You have a 1 in 8 chance of making your hand. if your opponent raises to 5xBB, and his stack is only 25xBB, calling with a low pocket pair cannot be profitable, because you are basically looking at losing 5xBB 7 times, and winning 25xBB 1 time, therefore having a net loss of 10BB. Obviously if you have a short stack, the same thing happens. Something else to consider, is realistically you will not get 8 times the preflop bet after the flop, sometimes they will fold. So, it is a good idea to make sure that they have well over 8 times the preflop call amount, (which is common as most people have ~25 times the amount), that way you might make back 20x your raise one time, and it will make up for the times you don't make what you should've.

[naturaltan]

thanks Greed!

{This post has been removed}

[spino1i]

OK everyones odds are off:

Flop: 2/50+(48/50)(2/49+(47/49)(2/48))
Turn:2/50+(48/50)(2/49+(47/49)(2/48+(46/48)(2/47)))
River:2/50+(48/50)(2/49+(47/49)(2/48+(46/48)(2/47+(45/47)(2/46))))

its 11.76% chance to hit on flop
15.51% chance to hit by turn
19.18% chance to hit by river

[EricE]

OK everyones odds are off:

Flop: 2/50+(48/50)(2/49+(47/49)(2/48))
Turn:2/50+(48/50)(2/49+(47/49)(2/48+(46/48)(2/47)))
River:2/50+(48/50)(2/49+(47/49)(2/48+(46/48)(2/47+(45/47)(2/46))))

its 11.76% chance to hit on flop
15.51% chance to hit by turn
19.18% chance to hit by river

Sure but those odds on the turn and river are not very helpfull. Once you hit the flop your outs to continue (2 outs) dictate 4.3% per streat to hit.

My only comment on all of this is that I find it real hard to get paid when I hit. I would say its 1 in 3 times I hit I can get paid decently because no body else hit their cards and won't bet back at me when I bet. So for me, seeing even a %5 PRR is a liberal.

[cono]

I call almost any preflop raise from a person with a lot of money in front of them if I have a pocket pair. If you hit, you take their stack.

One exception was last night I had 66 in BB. The button raised to 3xBB, and the SB reraised to 6xBB. I dropped my 66, the button called, and the flop came out 667. The SB had 77. I cried like an infant.

Was it as bad as this?

#Game No : 2366856978
***** Hand History for Game 2366856978 *****
$25 NL Texas Hold'em - Friday, July 15, 05:13:11 EDT 2005
Table Table 36938 (Real Money)
Seat 6 is the button
Total number of players : 8
Seat 1: Magic_cr ( $35.95 )
Seat 2: rebuyman ( $36.25 )
Seat 3: asdc123 ( $24.30 )
Seat 5: pokerpuk ( $35.85 )
Seat 9: duffster4 ( $34.56 )
Seat 8: stupidmunkey ( $8.50 )
Seat 6: zzz_123 ( $22.90 )
Seat 4: mako2005 ( $4.65 )
stupidmunkey posts small blind [$0.10].
duffster4 posts big blind [$0.25].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to rebuyman [ 4c 4d ]
twowayhard8 has joined the table.
Magic_cr folds.
rebuyman calls [$0.25].
asdc123 folds.
mako2005 folds.
pokerpuk folds.
zzz_123 raises [$2].
stupidmunkey folds.
duffster4 raises [$5.75].
rebuyman folds.
zzz_123 calls [$4].
** Dealing Flop ** [ 4s, 4h, Qc ]
duffster4 is all-In [$28.56]
zzz_123 is all-In [$16.90]
** Dealing Turn ** [ Ks ]
** Dealing River ** [ Jd ]
duffster4 shows [ 8d, 8s ] two pairs, eights and fours.
zzz_123 shows [ Qd, Kd ] two pairs, kings and queens.
duffster4 wins $11.66 from side pot #1 with two pairs, eights and fours.
zzz_123 wins $43.85 from the main pot with two pairs, kings and queens.
Game #2366858785 starts.

ps, hitting a set is the number one way that i double up my stack.

[JeffreyGB]

I call almost any preflop raise from a person with a lot of money in front of them if I have a pocket pair. If you hit, you take their stack.

One exception was last night I had 66 in BB. The button raised to 3xBB, and the SB reraised to 6xBB. I dropped my 66, the button called, and the flop came out 667. The SB had 77. I cried like an infant.

but you still made the right move, folding low pocket pair's to a raise and a reraise is very smart play. chances of the button coming back over the top after you call is too high

How is that a good play? I'll read the replies, but unless the original raiser ends up rereraising, this is +EV to play for a set. Sets love multi-way pots where several people are committed. Even with a short stack I'd probably make the call there; with a full stack I'd do it all day long and twice on Sunday. 6x at that point is nothing.

[JeffreyGB]

OK everyones odds are off:

Flop: 2/50+(48/50)(2/49+(47/49)(2/48))
Turn:2/50+(48/50)(2/49+(47/49)(2/48+(46/48)(2/47)))
River:2/50+(48/50)(2/49+(47/49)(2/48+(46/48)(2/47+(45/47)(2/46))))

its 11.76% chance to hit on flop
15.51% chance to hit by turn
19.18% chance to hit by river

Sure but those odds on the turn and river are not very helpfull. Once you hit the flop your outs to continue (2 outs) dictate 4.3% per streat to hit.

My only comment on all of this is that I find it real hard to get paid when I hit. I would say its 1 in 3 times I hit I can get paid decently because no body else hit their cards and won't bet back at me when I bet. So for me, seeing even a %5 PRR is a liberal.

Often what someone puts into the pot preflop directly ties to their willingness to call post flop. Someone betting 8x or reraising a raiser is much more likely to pay you off. You also have to know how to massage the pot a bit; trying a check/call, check/raise combo. Look for cards that come that look like they could scare you (but don't). If your set isn't vulnerable (usually it's not in a Heads-up situation) then you can often take the back seat for part of the hand. It pays off much more once they have committed some of their chips first.

[straight167]

I call almost any preflop raise from a person with a lot of money in front of them if I have a pocket pair. If you hit, you take their stack.

One exception was last night I had 66 in BB. The button raised to 3xBB, and the SB reraised to 6xBB. I dropped my 66, the button called, and the flop came out 667. The SB had 77. I cried like an infant.

but you still made the right move, folding low pocket pair's to a raise and a reraise is very smart play. chances of the button coming back over the top after you call is too high

How is that a good play? I'll read the replies, but unless the original raiser ends up rereraising, this is +EV to play for a set. Sets love multi-way pots where several people are committed. Even with a short stack I'd probably make the call there; with a full stack I'd do it all day long and twice on Sunday. 6x at that point is nothing.

i agree with Jeffrey here....any pocket pairs good against multi-way pots. i do understand people flop a set 1 out of 8 times but then again i also know that people with premium hands (not a pocket) raises a lot. If they dont hit it, you win. So playing with a low pocket pair is all about making the right decision at the right time. You just have to worry about running into higher pockets than urs.

I hit numerous sets on the turn or river and won many pots. My opponents just called my bets when I didnt have the position and just bet out. If they do have a pocket pair as well...then they will probably come over the top.

I noticed some people folded their pockets and coulda hit the quad. You think thats bad? Try 3 players ALL flopping sets. The flop came out, 10, A, 3. I had the tens....I was playing $4/8 Limit and it was capped all the way.