Operation Winning is a Habit

Thanks, guys. I realized on the way to work this morning that I will get rakeback of $60 sometime in the next week. So just not sucking and I'll see the 1k in a few days.

I'm at $1k in bankroll after last night. Here's some stats and graphs. Total progress since BJaust spanked me publicly for sucking a poker:



Here's position stats (25nl only):



And here's a graph. Orange circle is where maniac on my left stacked me twice and I tilt-spewed another 3 BI. It's also where I reassessed and tightened up slightly. Blue circle was adjustment - I don't think I was playing well, but I only had one really spewy session. Since things "clicked," it's been pretty steady upward progress.



Can the red line be positive? Mine's close to break-even where I'm winning, but it was always negative at 10nl.

Just placed 2nd in a 500 player $2.20 rebuy tourney, and cashed $622. I signed up for it using UB pts. Current BR is $1780. Got JJ all-in on 97x flop, dude has set of 7's, turn a J, I'm chip leader pretty quickly thereafter and stay there for 4 hours. Make the final table in 2nd place, play pretty decent though card dead much of last 3 hours. Get 99 and stack both shorties w/ 7 left, played okay until HU. Lost a 10x chip lead letting him double through twice when I got him all-in and was ahead or coin flip. But $600 is a big addition to my BR, so now I've got plans to make.

Plan
1. 3 months of GrinderSchool, full subscription ($35).
2. Withdraw $1200 from UB, leaving $500 BR + rakeback of $60 to grind 25nl until other sites set up.
3. Deposit $600 on Full Tilt to get 1st time deposit bonus.
4. Deposit $100 on Stats to get $50 bonus and have 5nl / 10nl roll there.
5. Put $500 into family budget, almost completely repaying all poker related expenses including software, books and buyins. And giving some to wife to make her happy about pokah!!
6. When FT/stars $$ ready, cash another $500 from UB and bonus whore at other sites/put on stars w/e.

That will leave $1200 in Bankroll, plus bonuses to grind. And about 25k of 25nl at UB behind me for my shot at "real" sites.

Any thoughts on the future much appreciated. Like...

1. How long it will take to clear $600 at Full Tilt grinding 25nl.
2. Should I start at 10nl at FT for a few k hands to get the roll warmed up?
3. How tough are they at FT? Should it be same as UB? Or is UB fishy by comparison?
4. What sites a U.S. player can bonus whore at profitably. Bodog? Doyle's Room?

Aight.

GrinderSchool, check.
$1200 on the way to me, check.
FullTilt set up, check (rakeback pending).
Wife was happy, check.

Then I dumped a BI at 25nl playing like a donkey.

Current plan is 25nl at UB until monies moved to FT/Stars, then grind at 25nl on FT and 5nl on Stars for kicks. Will allow me to join in on FTR tourneys, etc. Stop-loss move down to 10nl at UB if < 300.

some feedback on stats and graphs...
BB/100 = great although you ran kinda hot at $10, but who cares!
The rest of the stats look good - hard to really comment as there are so many varieties of winning game. While you're winning at a good rate you shouldn't look too hard at things (not broke, don't fix etc...). But anyway:
VPIP-PFR look good
3-bet - looks a little high to me (full ring - tinted glasses tho)
cold-calling looks like the right pairs etc.
The rest good too

Position stats.
* Seems as though you may be completing/limping/cold calling from the sb too much?
* big blind - check your play of low-mid pocket pairs against steals - set odds are worse cos stealer's range is weaker and less likely to pay out
* early and middle I like
* co you could probably open wider and both cold-call & 3-bet a little more? button you could maybe narrow your range slightly.

I suggest checking your results in pots you;ve 3-bet by position.

as for the lines, don't stress the non-showdown winnings. Worry about the green line - and there's nothing to worry about there!!! A big recent leak of players seems to be trying to bring the non-showdown line to breakeven (thanks 2+2!!!) - which means loads of bluffing into rivers when checked to = very exploitable.

edit - also read the discussion after the posted stats here: http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...61674-420.html

Originally Posted by Robb

Just placed 2nd in a 500 player $2.20 rebuy tourney, and cashed $622.

very nice!!!!! bankroll high of 1k a day or two ago and now almost doubled!!!

Originally Posted by Robb

Plan
1. 3 months of GrinderSchool, full subscription ($35).
2. Withdraw $1200 from UB, leaving $500 BR + rakeback of $60 to grind 25nl until other sites set up.
3. Deposit $600 on Full Tilt to get 1st time deposit bonus.
4. Deposit $100 on Stats to get $50 bonus and have 5nl / 10nl roll there.
5. Put $500 into family budget, almost completely repaying all poker related expenses including software, books and buyins. And giving some to wife to make her happy about pokah!!
6. When FT/stars $$ ready, cash another $500 from UB and bonus whore at other sites/put on stars w/e.

That will leave $1200 in Bankroll, plus bonuses to grind. And about 25k of 25nl at UB behind me for my shot at "real" sites.

1 = good
2 = good
3 = good, make sure you sign up with rakeback
4 = check for expiry time on the stars bonus
5 = cool!!!!!
6 = think about it later, and i suggest only working one bonus/site at a time.

Originally Posted by Robb

Any thoughts on the future much appreciated. Like...

1. How long it will take to clear $600 at Full Tilt grinding 25nl.
2. Should I start at 10nl at FT for a few k hands to get the roll warmed up?
3. How tough are they at FT? Should it be same as UB? Or is UB fishy by comparison?
4. What sites a U.S. player can bonus whore at profitably. Bodog? Doyle's Room?

1) full tilt bonus clear rate - it's x points /dollar, and you receive a point for each dollar taken in rake from the table. Use the rake/hand stats from UB and it's likely similar at FT - the maths shouldn't be too hard. I can tell you for Full Ring, but I'm not sure they're the same
2) play 10nl until you get used to the interface, until you have your HUD set up, until you're certain that there's nothing detracting from your a-game. You can determine when that is.
3) dunno
4) wait a while and ask this again - things may change over the next month or so...

Do NOT play 10nl at FTP - I think the rake there is exactly double the rake at PokerStars (10%). 25nl should be fine. Due to the rate you earn FTPs you probably clear the $600 bonus in about 60k hands at 25nl. Someone said 30k hands at 50nl. Both are guesstimates but should be right ballpark.
Only make deposits to be working on one bonus at a time imo - all bonuses are timed and it'd be annoying to work on several bonuses and have one or more of them time out because you were working on a different one.

Originally Posted by Erpel

Do NOT play 10nl at FTP - I think the rake there is exactly double the rake at PokerStars (10%). 25nl should be fine. Due to the rate you earn FTPs you probably clear the $600 bonus in about 60k hands at 25nl. Someone said 30k hands at 50nl. Both are guesstimates but should be right ballpark.

Thanks!!

Down a BI overall at 25nl on Sunday, and didn't play well. Probably B+ overall, but a few really poor hands cost me. Although, winning the equivalent of 25 BI in a MTT took the sting out of playing bad.

Took last night off, woke up early and played this morning. Up a BI.

Full Tilt rakeback is in question (of course). I was planning a move a year ago, set up an account. Can't get rakeback, now, blah, blah. Interesting thing though when I complained is that they're testing a way to get unaffiliated players eligible for rakeback. I think they're setting up their own internal rakeback program. They said they are testing the program and have my name on an internal list of folks who are likely to be eligible soon. Interesting, given how often I've heard folks talk about wanting to play FT but not because they can't get rakeback.

Originally Posted by Robb

Down a BI overall at 25nl on Sunday, and didn't play well. Probably B+ overall, but a few really poor hands cost me. Although, winning the equivalent of 25 BI in a MTT took the sting out of playing bad.

Took last night off, woke up early and played this morning. Up a BI.

Full Tilt rakeback is in question (of course). I was planning a move a year ago, set up an account. Can't get rakeback, now, blah, blah. Interesting thing though when I complained is that they're testing a way to get unaffiliated players eligible for rakeback. I think they're setting up their own internal rakeback program. They said they are testing the program and have my name on an internal list of folks who are likely to be eligible soon. Interesting, given how often I've heard folks talk about wanting to play FT but not because they can't get rakeback.

They gave u the std line of bullshit btw.

Originally Posted by Bbickes

They gave u the std line of bullshit btw.

Thanks, helps to know it up front. I just don't get why Full Tilt are such dickheads about rakeback. I guess they got 2nd biggest in the world doing something right, but I'm not hanging out there one second past my sign-on bonus clearing, that's for sure.

So...off to find another site. Probably land at Cake, then. Anyone there and eligible for the friend-to-friend $100 referral bonus if I sign up? PM me. I'll probably play FT for a couple months, clear the bonus, then move there. Probably pick up small bonuses later at PokerNordica/Carbon.

I'd have waited longer for FT. Their bonus is pretty rough to clear.

Nice going man, keep it up! More comments later.

Originally Posted by bjsaust

I'd have waited longer for FT. Their bonus is pretty rough to clear.

Nice going man, keep it up! More comments later.

I haven't deposited on FT, yet. I don't trust UB with my financial details, so I chose for them to send me a check to the house via FedEx. I will load up another site/bonus the end of this week when it arrives. I could go get $500 at Cake, play there until I'm ready for FT and 50nl.

Originally Posted by Robb

Originally Posted by bjsaust

I'd have waited longer for FT. Their bonus is pretty rough to clear.

Nice going man, keep it up! More comments later.

I haven't deposited on FT, yet. I don't trust UB with my financial details, so I chose for them to send me a check to the house via FedEx. I will load up another site/bonus the end of this week when it arrives. I could go get $500 at Cake, play there until I'm ready for FT and 50nl.

just to let you know, you can't use a hud on cake. and the minimum amount to be sent via check is $500.

Fun weekend. Yesterday, I ground out 2k hands, + 1 BI. Today, I just played twice for a few minutes during breaks, up 4 BI in just more than 500 hands.

I had a great 45 minute session just now. An agro multitabler was at 3 tables, across from me, and on my left and right. So we had "even" position across the tables. Turns out this guy is reasonably TAG (25/18) but his 3bet% ~ 20. I get 3bet about 4 straight times I'm PFR and fold. I consider leaving the table where he's on my left. But I'm getting confident at 25nl and decide to take notes of every hand he plays so I can play back at him.

I pick up AK and 4bet his 3bet. I pick up A6 and limp/rr his auto-rase otb - take down a 50bb pot w/ a cbet (I had air). Pick up AQs and 4bet him, get called, cbet air, then catch a Q on the turn. Fire all-in, he folds. Now he knows I'm playing back and starts 4betting me, I pick up QQ and 5-bet him all-in. He lays it down despite having committed over 55bb's to the pot. I don't pick up much to play with for a while. And we cool it. But I picked up tons of his chips. So it's fun - I'm learning to make adjustments, trusting my reads and firing in the chips, ready to get 'em all in the middle.

Oh, yeah, and my $600 initial deposit is on Full Tilt now. So I'm finally bonus whoring. About 3 years too late for a U. S. player, but I'll pick up some bonuses while I'm grinding up to 100nl and getting ready for Stars. I'll spend some time at 5nl or 10nl, getting the HUD/skin setup tonight. Then I'll start grinding. Should be interesting.

For the month, I'm right at 20k hands and 6 ptBB/100 win rate. It's to the point where I've won so much it's hard keeping track in my head.

UB: $625
FT: $600 (+ bonus)
Stars: $4 (lol)
Family Checking Account: $500
Robb's Poker Checking Account: $100

Another $150ish and I'll pass the $2k lifetime winnings mark. I started with my "last" $100 deposit last October. So this feels pretty cool.

Sorry for the brag post. Just trying to get my mind around life as a solidly winning poker player.

Congrats, Rob!

I am glad you made good adjustments. In your AQs hand, I'm wondering if maybe we could c/c turn to induce a bunch of crap to push instead of pushing ourselves since he's likely to shove floats/second pairish hands/random shit/etc.?

edit: obv. stack to pot ratio is certainly really small and it shouldn't matter but at the lower stakes it seems as if we still can make them fold even after they commit a lot of their stack in (esp. in your case as you mentioned a key example with this specific player) so it seems like we can kind of let them bluff/"value" bet into us with their whole stack a lot more.

Originally Posted by kmind

Congrats, Rob!

I am glad you made good adjustments. In your AQs hand, I'm wondering if maybe we could c/c turn to induce a bunch of crap to push instead of pushing ourselves since he's likely to shove floats/second pairish hands/random shit/etc.?

edit: obv. stack to pot ratio is certainly really small and it shouldn't matter but at the lower stakes it seems as if we still can make them fold even after they commit a lot of their stack in (esp. in your case as you mentioned a key example with this specific player) so it seems like we can kind of let them bluff/"value" bet into us with their whole stack a lot more.

That's a good thought. I really thought he'd call. I almost fell off my chair when he folded it. I was certain I was ahead, so yeah, maybe let him just do his agro-thing with JJ or TT. Thanks!!

Originally Posted by Robb

Another $150ish and I'll pass the $2k lifetime winnings mark. I started with my "last" $100 deposit last October. So this feels pretty cool.

Sorry for the brag post. Just trying to get my mind around life as a solidly winning poker player.

very nice!!!!
and what is your personal op thread if not a spot for bragging as appropriate - it sure makes for better reading than people whining about badbeats

Full Tilt life is good. I'm down a couple of BI total, but I cleared $20.

I worked on a couple of strategies for bonus clearing, playing 1k hands just to see how many FPP's I could earn.

1. 12 tables of 25nl FR, nitting it up.
2. 8 tables of 50nl FR w/ 60bb BI.

If I need to, I can clear the bonus either of those two ways in a few weeks. So I went back to my main game, 25nl 6m, 4 tabling and then 5 tabling. I have no HH's on anyone, so I'm learning to play fewer tables and take furious notes on everyone. I'm getting more comfortable. FT isn't as hard as I thought it would be. It's not hard to find good games and fishy villains, imo.

Latest adjustment is to play for an 80bb BI. Since my reads aren't as solid, the smaller SPR's are better for TPTK type hands. Fewer trouble spots. I'm also ditching tables if I chip up past 150 bb's. I dislike playing huge pots without good reads.

I was up 4 BI earlier in the day, then went a downer. Typical. AQ < AT. he was laggy. I knew on the AT9 flop both AT and A9 were in his range, but I lot of other hands were, too. Then AA < JT. He called a 3bet cold, PFR folded, flop is JTx. He went busto a few rounds later, but it wasn't me who got his stack. Then I went through a stretch were I couldn't connect with a flop. So now I'm +1.5 BI. Hoping to play another 1k hands tonight.

Up 4 BI at 25nl 6m today. My all-in EV is $100 more than that. I'm running at 3 ptBB/100 over just less than 4k hands.

I'm break even over 1k hands at 50nl FR (60bb stack) and down 4 BI at 25nl FR. I'm a few bucks down total at FT, but I'm building some HH's and generally enjoying life. I can read this game without massive HUD stats on half the table, but I'm only playing 5 tables so I can really watch. It's good for my game, taking lots of notes and trying to infer possible actions from limited data. If I'm gonna clear this bonus, I'll need to add another coupla tables though, or play some 50nl.

I guess I'm happy. I'm +EV at 25nl 6m at FT. And getting more so.

Happy Thanksgiving.

Originally Posted by Robb

I have no HH's on anyone,

you can get hand histories on FT without having to be playing - just signed into your account, getting loads of data - even when you're 5-tabling you should have 16 open and loading into HEM....

Originally Posted by daven

Originally Posted by Robb

I have no HH's on anyone,

you can get hand histories on FT without having to be playing - just signed into your account, getting loads of data - even when you're 5-tabling you should have 16 open and loading into HEM....

Oh, REALLLLLY. We'll fix that bitch right up.

Thanks!

Up and down weekend. Up 7 BI yesterday after being down 4 BI Saturday, some variance, but probably 3 BI of total spew.I do it less, but I still tend to tilt-spew when I'm running bad.

What Mike Caro says is seriously true: you've gotta play your best poker EVERY HAND. If you do, you'll be fine long term. If I had just played well through the bad stretches Saturday, limited my losses to a couple BI, I'd be up well over a hundred bucks even though the deck wasn't kind (Saturday). Sunday was positive variance, somewhat, but I play well when I'm running hot ldo. I got AQ 2 pair all-in against a KT who flopped a straight - caught a Q for the boat on the river.

My current goal is to finish clearing my FT bonus with at least $1,500. That's only wins of 12 BI with $600 bonus. I think it's doable. And with another $500 from UB once my rakeback hits, I could move to another site - maybe stars, maybe more bonus whoring. I'm hoping for a shot at 50nl by Christmas. With $700 plus my FT roll, I could legitimately take a shot with $1,300. Nice goal to have finally.

Quick update. I'm grinding my $600 signup bonus at Full Tilt, mixing it up between 25nl 6m (my best game on other sites) and 50nl FR with a 60bb BI. I'm running 6 ptBB/100 at FR over 8k hands, so I'm probably gonna just grind away at 50nl. I've basically got $1k at FT right now w/ $240 in bonus cleared. I'm on target for my goal of quitting FT w/ $1.5k.

I'm torn between learning more about poker and making money. I'm not learning much ss'ing at 50nl except that I can adjust my game. I'm not hit-and-running any more, so I'm getting into some interesting spots w/ 100bb+ stacks, but generally where I have pretty good reads on half the table.

I would probably learn more about playing the TAGGfish full-stacked at 6m 25nl, but it's high variance and doesn't clear the bonus very fast. I think the ss'ing is going to be good if I wanna grind bonuses at sites like Cake where the HUD's don't work or at sites like Bodog where you can only play 4 tables max and what to play higher stakes to clear the bonus. But I'm looking forward to bonus whoring. I think I can generate a nice $4k roll and move to Stars by mid-Spring, always dependent on how many hands I can get in.

I will make this promise to myself, though. If I get to 100nl, I'm going to work on both FR and 6m until I think I have a decent all-around game.

Right now, it's nice to be able to say I'm winning at both 25nl and 50nl. Feels like upward mobility, amiright?

Why not do both? You could grind out FR w/ 60BBs to speed up the bonus clearing whilst keeping your 100BB brain sharp on the 6max tables from time to time? Or alternatively just play a shitload of hands at FR w 60BB till your roll hits $1250 then start buying in full? I imagine if you're playing a lot of tables your bonus clearing rate must be upwards of $10 an hour, probably more?

Also, with all the theory posts and whatnot that you make, I'm guessing you do plenty of learning away from the tables anyways so it's not like you're letting your poker mind go to waste

Originally Posted by kettleofish

Why not do both? You could grind out FR w/ 60BBs to speed up the bonus clearing whilst keeping your 100BB brain sharp on the 6max tables from time to time? Or alternatively just play a shitload of hands at FR w 60BB till your roll hits $1250 then start buying in full? I imagine if you're playing a lot of tables your bonus clearing rate must be upwards of $10 an hour, probably more?

Also, with all the theory posts and whatnot that you make, I'm guessing you do plenty of learning away from the tables anyways so it's not like you're letting your poker mind go to waste

Yeah, I think you're right. It would be good if I had another $200 or so to withdraw from UB/Absolute to start a bonus whoring project at Carbon, so maybe I'll get HEM 1.07 set up and working on UB and grind some 25nl over there. Maybe go grind there a couple of nights per week.

Yeah, I'm clearing about $20 of bonus per night, and my sessions tend to be 1.5 to 2 hours, when I play, which is 3 to 4 night per week.

Last night, 1.2k hands, +3.5 BI at 50nl FR
Tonight, 1k hands, +2 BI at 50nl FR

Current FT roll: about $1,280.
$600 initial deposit
$280 bonus cleared
$400 profit ($550 at 50nl FR only, -$125 at 25nl 6m, -$25 at 10nl various)

So I'm on pace right to clear the bonus and have a $2k FT roll to withdraw. Wow. Poker is fun - almost every time I play. :P

Originally Posted by Robb

So I'm on pace right to clear the bonus and have a $2k FT roll to withdraw. Wow. Poker is fun - almost every time I play. :P

Oooooh schoolboy error, commence downswong. Nice results tho!

LoL. I did run a bit cooler in my next session. Funny though, I still think in terms of 25nl BI, so I have to correct my winnings per session by dividing by 2. Down about a BI session after my "error."

Pretty horrible day of poker, yesterday. Down a BI instead of up 2 or 3 'cuz I sucked. I seem incapable of playing my A game for more than 4k or 5k hands at a time. I tail off and go on autopilot for 1k hands and start to suck really bad. I am learning to notice it and fight through it, though.

But the upside is that my A game is improving steadily. I'm confident I can win at any stakes 50nl and lower, now.

Problems:
1. I still tend to multitable too many tables at once, especially when tired. I can play 10 FR tables when I'm feeling great, but I need to back off to 6 - 8 tables when my mind is sluggish.
2. I'm not using reads enough. SPR is important, the board is important, but I need to focus as well on particular villains left to act. If I correct #1, I'll have time during each hand to fix #2.
3. I get commitment decisions wrong too often when facing smallish flop raises. Example: I open AQs and flop is T94 with none of my suit. I cbet ip w/ two callers who've checked to me, but only one folds. The other min-raises my cbet. By now, the pot's bloated, and I realize that the villain was playing short-stacked. If I call (and I'm getting like 4 to 1 on it), I'm committed. But I think I'm likely behind his range now. Wonder why I didn't consider this BEFORE cbetting?
4. I still don't call well. I am good at betting when I should and folding most of the times I should, but calling can be really profitable in the right spots. I think some check/call lines on flop/turn could improve my win rate in certain big pots. I'm still winning with this leak, but I'll need to plug it to move up past 100nl, imo.

But poker life is good overall. I set out about 2 months ago to see if counting on poker to provide additional income was even possible. I hope by Spring to be at 100nl where a reasonable win rate would provide $500+ per month I could withdraw. I think it's doable, now.

My plan once I'm at 100nl is to play certain "money" sessions, targeting a specific number of hours/hands per week. Any additional hands I play would be "learning" sessions, playing 6m or FR to work on my game, moving down a couple limits to try out more laggy styles and/or work on postflop, and so on. I probably need to be able to earn $1k per month with about 10 hours/week of "money" sessions for it to qualify as a "part time income" source. And I need to be able to play my A game consistently over 20k+ hands.

Hey Robb.

Hows it goin???

Nice Op Robb, GL

2 things FYI

1>> Why dont you get your wife to open a Full Tilt account with bonus and rakeback? Then ask her real nice like if you can use her account to play on. Or maybe she doesnt even have to know she has a poker account I got around the rakeback thing on Tilt this way, and was even able to transfer money to my account for withdrawals.

2>> I havent confirmed it yet but SugarNut mentioned in one of his new vids that FT changed their T&C's to disallow dataming. Be wery wery wary doing it.

Originally Posted by OhBollocks

Nice Op Robb, GL

2 things FYI

1>> Why dont you get your wife to open a Full Tilt account with bonus and rakeback? Then ask her real nice like if you can use her account to play on. Or maybe she doesnt even have to know she has a poker account I got around the rakeback thing on Tilt this way, and was even able to transfer money to my account for withdrawals.

2>> I havent confirmed it yet but SugarNut mentioned in one of his new vids that FT changed their T&C's to disallow dataming. Be wery wery wary doing it.

1) Oh, I've thought about it, sure. Just not sure it's worth it, putting $$ at risk like that. I might consider it, though. I really like FT and I'm winning goot there.
2) Yeah, I sent them an email asking about it, and their answer was rather vague about whether you can do "personal datamining." According to their TOC, just grabbing hands at a FR table while waiting for your first hand to be dealt is no kosher, and I asked about it. The "specialist" who replied 3 days later (slow for FT customer service) didn't really address it. They went way out of their way to express that using 3rd party datamined HH's is grounds for confiscating your roll, but didn't really address grabbing HH's off your tables while sitting out or off other tables while you're playing.

All in all, being an honest gambler is difficult.

Observed hands still work at FT though, at least with HEM. I was watching some 25/50 while playing at my small stakes and started getting stats. Does this mean I'm losing my $3 bankroll?

Originally Posted by Robb

4. I still don't call well. I am good at betting when I should and folding most of the times I should, but calling can be really profitable in the right spots.

try finding spots where you can call a LP raise against the right opponent while you are on the button with a very wide range. I did a mini-experiment a while back that helped my game a lot where I only played premium hands if I was going to be OOP, but played all sorts of hands on the button.

Originally Posted by Robb

Originally Posted by OhBollocks

Nice Op Robb, GL

2 things FYI

1>> Why dont you get your wife to open a Full Tilt account with bonus and rakeback? Then ask her real nice like if you can use her account to play on. Or maybe she doesnt even have to know she has a poker account I got around the rakeback thing on Tilt this way, and was even able to transfer money to my account for withdrawals.

2>> I havent confirmed it yet but SugarNut mentioned in one of his new vids that FT changed their T&C's to disallow dataming. Be wery wery wary doing it.

1) Oh, I've thought about it, sure. Just not sure it's worth it, putting $$ at risk like that. I might consider it, though. I really like FT and I'm winning goot there.
2) Yeah, I sent them an email asking about it, and their answer was rather vague about whether you can do "personal datamining." According to their TOC, just grabbing hands at a FR table while waiting for your first hand to be dealt is no kosher, and I asked about it. The "specialist" who replied 3 days later (slow for FT customer service) didn't really address it. They went way out of their way to express that using 3rd party datamined HH's is grounds for confiscating your roll, but didn't really address grabbing HH's off your tables while sitting out or off other tables while you're playing.

All in all, being an honest gambler is difficult.

Wheres the risk? Its a genuine account that someone else (your missus) opens. And being your missus, account to account fund transfer isnt at all odd.

This is all just imo obv

Originally Posted by Robb

Right now, it's nice to be able to say I'm winning at both 25nl and 50nl. Feels like upward mobility, amiright?

nice work. Glad you made it. Next steps are obvious

Tough night at the office. Down 4 BI. AA < AK twice on Kxx flops, once with river king, once w/ runner flush. AKs < AA w/ FD + BDSD - yep, this time the draw stayed out. Every pot (implied) odds call missed. Every big hand flopped middle suited cards. Yikes. It got to the point where I started thinking "what's the flop I'd hate worst here," and yep, sho 'nuff, there it appeared right on my screen.

All right, enough bitching. I was playing pretty well. I refused to check the "score," just kept grinding until the repeated bad beats got to me. When I felt my game wobble, I closed it down. GG robb.

Had to happen sooner or later, I suppose. I'm still well-rolled for 50nl and nearly done w/ FT bonus. Probably finish by Jan 1st - I'll be out of town from Sunday - Wednesday, so no poker.

Merry Christmas all. Good luck at the tables.

Merry Christmass Robb.

All right, maybe it's that "new year's resolution" thing that happens this time of year, maybe it's the "3 week break from work/teaching" but w/e I'm completely rethinking my game.

First off, I'm well aware of the dangers of FPS at the micros and small stakes. (Jeez, I'm playing 50nl, now, so I'm no longer at the micros, amiright? A small stakes grinder.) But I'm also well aware now, more so than ever before, that there are HUGE leaks in my game, simply because the small stakes players aren't good enough to require truly solid poker. So I'm rereading NLHE TAP, Tommy Angelo, Mathematics of Poker, and so forth. I'm thinking about every aspect of my game, preflop, postflop, bluffing, thin value, not bluffing, cbetting, rr'ing, cr'ing, shoving, folding. Whatever.

But I'm doing a good bit of thinking about, reading about, and mathematical analysis of my game right now, not so much to make huge changes now but instead to understand the game better and prepare for the day when adjustments will be necessary.

I'll post some thoughts here and elsewhere on FTR over the next few weeks.

Originally Posted by Robb

Pretty horrible day of poker, yesterday. Down a BI instead of up 2 or 3 'cuz I sucked. I seem incapable of playing my A game for more than 4k or 5k hands at a time. I tail off and go on autopilot for 1k hands and start to suck really bad. I am learning to notice it and fight through it, though.

why not take a break for a little while, and then go back to it? the games will still be there.

Originally Posted by frosst

Originally Posted by Robb

Pretty horrible day of poker, yesterday. Down a BI instead of up 2 or 3 'cuz I sucked. I seem incapable of playing my A game for more than 4k or 5k hands at a time. I tail off and go on autopilot for 1k hands and start to suck really bad. I am learning to notice it and fight through it, though.

why not take a break for a little while, and then go back to it? the games will still be there.

This is good advice. I'll say two things.

First, I'm trying to extend my capability to play my A game since, for the first time in my life, I'm thinking of poker as a "part time job" instead of a hobby. My current goal is to grind to 100nl, stabilize there in terms of win rate, game selection and rakeback so I can estimate my "poker value per hour." At that point, I'd like to start withdrawing money on a regular basis.

Second, your advice is even better given my first point, that I should start taking breaks as part of my poker routine. For example, take one night each week "off" from poker. If I'm going to develop a long-term winning game that can churn out positive EV hour after hour, month after month, I'll need a routine that often lets me veg out and recharge.

Learning to be a solidly winning poker player requires a lot of disciplined effort, and I guess I just never really thought of it that way until the last few months.

After Thursday's down 4 BI day and Friday's down 1 BI day, today was the up 6.5 BI day. The interesting thing to me is that I played pretty well in all three sessions. I got a bit wobbly once or twice, but only down to my B game for a few hands, never my C game.

The heater felt nice. I'm sitting right at $1.8k in my FT account w/ $80 of bonus left to clear. If I run decent, I'll quit FT with 2k (1.5k was my minimum "it's worth it" goal, and 1.8k was my top end goal when I started). 2k was always in the back of my mind, but I didn't think I hit it without some luck. And I won't, without some luck.

But I have enough FTpts to buy a book - woo hoo!!

The rest of that bonus is gonna have to wait until after Christmas to clear. I'm traveling and won't have any time or place to play poker.

I hope all y'all have a blessed Christmas and get good stuff from Santa (even though I can confirm several of y'all weren't that nice in '08).

It's kinda fun reviewing the whole year. At this time last year, I was just learning to beat 10nl consistently, and my only goal for 2008 was to become a winning player. Now I'm playing 50nl confident I can win there and with results to back it up. A bankroll of a coupla hundred turned in $3k, mostly in the last few months.

There was the "wilderness" of May - September, where I lost my way and generally sucked so bad I couldn't even beat 10nl. Overall, though, I wouldn't really trade anything about my poker year. The wilderness led to a month of "putting it all together" work which in turn led to the success I'm having now.

Poker goals for '09 all revolve around generating a consistent income poker of, say, $500 or more per month. To do that, I'd like to grind my roll up to $4,500 and prove I can beat 100nl. Maybe May 1st, for that? After I stabilize at 100nl and a ~5k roll, I'll just practice grinding, say, 12 - 15 hours per week (including study time), hoping to get another 2 -3 hours of non-grinding play each week to attack higher levels and develop my game.

While I like the grinder school approach, I must say that FTR is what inspires me and teaches me best. I would hate playing poker without FTR and a great group of regs I can talk to about the ups and downs. As soon as you pay for something, the atmosphere changes. Grinder school is all business. But at FTR, we're here 'cuz we love discussing poker, goofing off, ranting and generally working on our game. And it's all good.

Happy New Year, and God bless you all in 2009.

Happy New Year Robb. Fantastic blog.

Dude, i'm a noob round here but can i just say your writing is inspirational and the structure to this blog is superb, I think i'll be working my way through your past posts.

Hope you dont mind the random post.

Not a bit. Thanks for the kind words. Welcome to FTR, and let me know if I can help with anything. GL at the tables.

A bit late, but a happy new year Robb!

This blog is just awesome and inspiring and provides a lot of great info for the feesh like me, keep it up. I can´t wait to see you pwning the higher limits.

Haven't been playing my A game much lately. Ended up in the ER with a kidney stone Sunday. So I can either play drugged or with waves of pain radiating through my groin. I call the two varieties my D game and my P game. :P

It seems that D > P.

I won nearly $100 last night playing D game. I just started grinding a bonus at Carbon. HEM and PT3 aren't compatible with the Merge network, yet, so that's interesting. I have to take lots of notes. I'm only playing 2 - 3 tables at a time, mostly 6m right now, trying to build up some basic reads on the regs. The 25nl games seem really soft, but 50nl produces some capable regs. There aren't very many games, especially at "down" times. In the evenings, it's about a half dozen 6m tables at 25nl and 50nl each, maybe 1 or 2 FR tables.

The bonus is going to be a challenge to clear, unless I move up levels. You get "comp points" based simply on hands played, but more points for higher levels. Both 25nl and 50nl clear the bonus at the same (slow) speed. More rakeback for 50nl, where the calculations are like other sites, but I'll probably just have to grind as many 25nl tables as they have active to generate the volume I need. And no one else is using a HUD. The games really seem soft, but I'll know after I get "past" my P game phase and can really focus and play.

I like the no-HUD challenge. I'm looking for a hand convertor so I can at least import hands, analyze regs and chart my progress. But playing the game with no HUD reads - just my eyeballing of villains' style, is a real treat. I think I'm going to develop a TON of good observational skills while I'm here including a chance to practice inferential reads (rather than HUD-based deductive reads).

Carbon Poker's software tilts me HARD. There is no easy way I've found to view mucked cards without digging through HH text on your hard drive. Since I play TAGG, I'm usually the one "showing down," and these donks just auto-muck their junk. So it's hard to get reads on their ranges. I'm trying to find a way around that.

So life is good. Today I've gone without pain meds, and made it through 5 hours at work in reasonable shape. And I'll be doing a ton of grinding this weekend, hopefully. And maybe playing some A game again soon.

So I'm at Carbon, clearing a bonus + Rakeback. I'll never clear the whole thousand - the software is too clunky and too few tables to churn out enough hands. Even if I were rolled for 200nl, where the bonus clears twice as fast, there aren't enough tables. So it's jam hard on 25nl, beat the game, collect the bonus (about $3 / hr) and rakeback.

Carbon is SO weak-tight. It's amazing. No one's willing to call a 2/3 pot flop cbet without a hand that beats Aces. And most times a guy is willing to get it all in, he's got 2 pair plus. I'm up like $5 after running into quads twice (once w/ KK overs, once w/ AK TPTK) and set-under-set twice in 2.5k hands.

Let me try to describe the piece of shit plays I've seen.
1. Massive min-betting, min-raising.
2. Folds to 1 bb river bets in 20bb pots.
3. Min donk bets which generally mean weakness. (If you're gonna fold, why not save a chip?)
4. 3+ limpers all folding to a standard raise when I've got the BTN and A9.

These types of things happen every freakin' hand at both 25nl and 50nl, though 50nl is SLIGHTLY better. It's so bad that I'm raising 55 for vALUE instead set-hunting with it from EP. LoL.

I watched AA and KK UTG raises and TPTK flop bets fold out the entire table so often I started expanding the range. I'm now opening AT and KJs UTG, wondering when folks will get tired of me winning the blinds. But I am starting to get action when I play, so I guess these morans do eventually pick up some reads.

It's the most boring, stable and slowly upward trending process I can imagine. But it'll be good for the bankroll. Once you pick up some reads, it's hard to lose a stack. They're not willing to gamble. If they raise the flop, they've got a hand.

The software is awful. It's a gimmick site, where you can show one card instead of your whole hand, if you wan to. A rabbit cam. Hell, in all-in hands, they'll even let you "run it twice" like they do on High Stakes Poker. But in terms of basic functionality, like having the software remember your table layout (like FT) or allowing auto-topoff (stars) or even something simple like a way to take yourself ALL waiting lists at once. Jeez. What a piece of crap site.

Well, at least its good money. Good luck at the real-site tables while I'm grinding this bonus in Hades.

Haven't played much. I've got the kids this weekend and we traveled to my parents house. Being a "single" dad for a few days doesn't leave much time for poker. When I've played lately, I've won.

Tonight was the 4th time I've run into quads at Carbon in less than 10k hands, but at least I didn't cough up an entire stack this time. This hand made it easier to live with. :P

I wasn't gonna call the flop raise until the MP player called it first. I was expecting 88 from someone, but I thought I had enough equity/FE for the shove. Dunno looking back. Tough spot. But the poker gods smiled on me.

$0.25/$0.5 No Limit Holdem
9 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG ($20.75)
UTG 1 ($32.90)
MP1 ($102.30)
Hero (MP2) ($79.55)
MP3 ($50.00)
CO ($37.25)
BTN ($47.00)
SB ($10.50)
BB ($39.40)

Pre-flop: ($0.75, 9 players) Hero is MP2
2 folds, MP1 calls $0.50, Hero raises to $2.25, 4 folds, BB calls $1.75, MP1 calls $1.75

Flop: ($7, 3 players)
BB checks, MP1 checks, Hero bets $4.50, BB raises to $12, MP1 calls $12, Hero calls $7.50

Turn: ($43, 3 players)
BB checks, MP1 bets $28.50, Hero goes all-in $65.30, BB goes all-in $25.15, MP1 calls $36.80, UTG 1 says "wow..."

River: ($198.75, 3 players)

Final Pot: $198.75
Hero shows:
BB shows:
MP1 shows:

Hero wins $195.75 ( won $116.20 )
BB lost -$39.40
MP1 lost -$79.55

Got in 1.5k hands last night. Exciting session. I mean REALLY exciting. I ran like a god on flops early, hitting sets, TPTK's and 2 pair WAAAYYYY more often than I should have. But simultaneously I ran like dog shit on the river. Hit the set, watch the flush come in. Pick up Aces and get 3bet. Get a monotone flop. The monies were flying around the table in all my hands, and I seemed to start off every hand way ahead, only for the turn to be the worst card in the deck and the river to complete at least 1700 of the possible draws.

So it was pretty freakin' exciting. In the end, I was up 3 BI (50nl FR).

Didn't play much this week, and will not get many hands next week. Work is nuts right now. I was happy with my session, tho'. I didn't feel great, but I trimmed down to only 8 FR tables and felt like I was up for it.

I've been laughing about the new Offspring single "She's Got Issues," a pretty hilarious set of lyrics for anyone who's ever dated a true psycho bitch. So perhaps it's OK to discuss one of my poker issues. If I get too whiny, just reply "check your baggage at the (FTR) door."

I have this reputation among top FTR regs as an underachiever. Generally, I don't get too worked up about what people think of me, especially not cyber-friends on the internet. But I went through a downswing for a week or so and simultaneously read some of the less flattering analyses of my poker career in the LoL Wife-aments thread I wrote.

Several things are true. One, I did not do as well as people think "I should have" with poker for a long time, mostly because I did not take poker very seriously until October 2008. Two, I enjoy discussions on FTR so much I've stayed active for a year-and-a-half, even when I didn't have tons of time to devote to poker. So people think I was putting in this gut-wrenching effort to succeed - but failing. Three, I don't play that many hands most months. I had this 6 month stretch from March to September of 2008 where I broke even over 60k hands at 10nl. But two whole months I played less than 5k hands. It was a start/stop, out-of-sync time in my LIFE. Poker suffered. But since I stayed active on FTR, people noticed that I spent a year at 10nl. Four, I've always been pretty damn honest. I made up my mind that the best way to deal with "you suck" comments on FTR was to stay humble, admit publicly the comments were probably correct and try to learn anything I could or at least benefit from the motivational value of being called out. An example of what I mean is described here, when BJaust said I might just suck at poker.

It was about a week after that thread when due to independent events (mostly economic) I turned my thoughts to actually trying to crush the game and win as much monies as possible. And this is the frustrating part. Since then, when I've played every session like it was a job, since I've tried to actually earn the most with the poker minutes I have, I've beaten the micros pretty soundly and moved up rather quickly. After not having quite $500 in September, I withdrew $600 before Christmas and have $2.7k + in br at two sites.

I'm not dumb. I don't feel like I deserve the reputation I have as "too mathy for my own good at poker," or an epic underachiever. But it's out there. And it motivates me, honestly.

Here is a final thing I know. When I get to 200nl and beat that level, the underachiever thing will be behind me. So there's the plan: admit that I do often suck at poker, learn from it, move on and keep getting better so I move up. The monies always seem to talk loudest, so just win 'em - that solves most poker problems, amiright?

Originally Posted by Robb

When I get to 200nl and beat that level

so get on with it dude...
ps 2.7k, nh

I think its well behind you, has been since shortly after that thread you linked where I basically called you out. You've been rocking since then (and flown past myself). I think one thing a lot of people (including myself and its what I meant in that thread), is you'd write these huge monologues about tiny little niche areas of poker when you werent beating the micros, and beating micros isnt about tiny niche edges. More like stop putting so much effort into stuff that wont help much, when you obviously have huge gaps in the basics based off your results so far.

I wouldnt let it get to you, anyone following this thread at all knows those days are well behind, and the rest, well, part of poker is not caring what others think .

Originally Posted by bjsaust

I wouldnt let it get to you, anyone following this thread at all knows those days are well behind, and the rest, well, part of poker is not caring what others think .

Well said bjsaust and keep rockin Rob!

I didn't realize anyone still checked this thread :P

Thanks guys.

Weird session this AM. Woke up at 4 - so I played an hour before I left for work. It's literally my 2nd hand on my 2nd table, and I 3bet JJ (a $10 bet) on the BTN and get open 4bet shoved from the BB. Hijack PFR folds. A couple limpers do, too. We both have $50 (100bb) stacks, so I need just less than 40% equity to call. I do some half-assed poker-stove like calculations in my head and decide I ought to call if AK is in his range. I call it down, he shows AA, and no suck out. So I check the Stove and realize I did have equity right, but I think I spewed on including AK in his open 4bet shoving range - he's only 12/8 w/ 0% 3bet and 0% 4bet over 155 hands. So that range is probably KK+ and I screwed up.

OK, now I'm 5 hands into my session and I've donked off a BI as a 4.5 to 1 dog. Someone at the table chats: "wtf else could he have, donk?" Which I'm kinda buyin'. Then I ditch 99 in what turns out to be a 3-way all-in-pre fest and watch them turn up KQs, AKs, and AJo. LoL.

I snap off an all-in when I spike 2 pair w/ AJ as PFR and get a rai from a TAGG I'm pretty sure is flatting preflop with AQ, or worse, and pick up half a stack on a AJx flop. OK, I'm gettin' back near even and warmed up.

Then I flop a set of 4's oop, bet out 1/3 get a caller and turn QUADS. I bet out 1/3 again 'cuz the board is 3 3 4 4 and I don't see how he calls any real bet. He comes along for a river A, and I bet 1/3 pot again. He raises. Orly?!?! So I shove, he tanks, then calls it down w/ AJo. Another 40bb stack.

Final quirky hand was me open-raising TT from the BTN after 3 limpers and getting open 3bet shoved from the BB. It folds to me, so I get to close the action. This guy's stats are all over the place: like 62/37/9 over 60 hands, with 12% 3bet. And he's only got a 40bb stack. So I can't lay this down, but (of course) haunting images of that first hand are scrolling through my head as I call. He shows down...


...



...wait for it



94s. Yowzah! Funnier than that was the board counterfeiting my hand by landing AQQA7, so I only beat him by having a T kicker instead of a 9. I had to sweat the freakin' river when he was drawing almost dead on the flop.

So I finish about 45 minutes and 500 hands up 1.25 BI, and head for the shower. Some days, the game just shows you wacky shit.

Warning: Long post - skip to "the point" if details and ramblings about my life will bore the hell out of you.

I started an operation (4.5k by May) last night. I think I'll keep posting in both. I'm gonna do a traditional operation there, with posts at least weekly about hands played and br totals. I've got 2.7k, so I just need 1.8k to get there.

I feel like I'm finally starting to complete this operation: winning is a habit. What that meant to me a year ago when I started here was that I played my C game too much, just to be playing poker. I didn't study enough or take winning seriously enough. I didn't have the right attitude for poker. But the epiphany didn't really occur until 4 months ago, so I'm not sure winning is actually habitual for me - yet.

This next few days will be a test. I'm cooked. I'm exhausted and brain dead. A huge research and professional development project I've been working on for 5 years had a massive near-end-phase deadline culminating in a workshop yesterday where we had 18 high school teachers of statistics on campus. I organized the entire event, plus presented 3 hour-long sessions, plus worked with 6 student workers behind the scenes that I hired and trained. I am NOT cut out to be an event coordinator.

I worked more than 60 hours last week and something way past 80 this week - I was at work by 6 AM the last three days, and went back to work after dinner Wed/Thurs and stayed until nearly midnight.

I've played maybe 5k hands in the last 2 weeks thanks to work craziness, and my play over those 5k hands while profitable, may have just been positive variance. I felt like things were wobbly. So I'm rusty, and cooked, and I know from experience that I will be mentally "off" for several days until I catch up on sleep, exercise and other life normalcy.

These are times where playing my C game is an extremely easy trap to fall into. Now that the stress is bleeding off, chilling out with pokah seems like a grand way to relax. The kind of discipline that has preserved the upward trend of my bankroll is to simply NOT play when I'm exhausted, sick, or distracted. That's fine, to a point, but I get rusty and wobbly if I play fewer than 5k hands over a couple weeks or so. I tend to stack off a couple of times needlessly in a couple of abysmal sessions before bearing down and getting back to my A game.

The Point
I might not play well this weekend and next week because (a) I haven't played many hands lately and (b) I am exhausted at a deep level. This is the point of learning that will help me most, given how my professional life peaks into a few weeks of frenzy about 3 times per year.

To be successful playing in the next 10 days, I must:
1. Not play except when A-game capable.
2. Stop playing whenever sub-A play appears. Take a break. Resume only if #1 seems true after a short break.
3. Focus on each hand each time - if my concentration seems low, cut back on tables. If I can't concentrate enough, just stop playing - even if I'm winning.
4. Study HH's after every session to look for signs of my habitual "tired" leaks reappearing.

I also need to exercise, eat better and return to normal sleep patterns. And spend time with my kids to regain some life EV. As I work into a normal life pattern, I think poker will be fine. But this is the kind of thing that would have just gutted my bankroll last year. I'd have dropped 8 BI at 10nlh, switched to 10plo, cough up another 5 BI, and then back to 10nlh, and so on... until 200 bucks later I would take a break for a couple of days 'cuz I hated poker so much. Why not just take the break BEFORE - right when I'm worst off mentally. Then maybe skip the speworgy.

None of that. Just steady, confident and patient.

Feel like I conquered the tired tilt. In my search for FTR Rethreads, I found this from Bankitdrew:

Playing with Fatigue

I made one big mistake and that was playing too long a session without a break my first time back after the week off and 2 weeks of very little pokah. Note to self: learn from that. Take a break, moran. Just too excited to be playin'. Dumped 1.25 BI in my final 10 minutes, probably a third variance and two-thirds me just doin' stoopid sh!t. Maybe more on the stoopid side of that equation.

Overall, after three sessions this weekend, I finished up 3 BI's in a bit less than 4k hands, when before I would have spiraled downward. Just really feel like I learned something about how to deal with "time off" from poker. It's all really just about playing that A game as close to 100% of the time as possible. Why play your C game and dump BI's you have to win back? Better off just not playing.

Overall, I think I played my B+ game much of the weekend, but I had some nice stretches of A game, and never dropped into what I'm now referring to as speworgy.

Speworgy (n) pronounced SPYOO or jyee
An orgy of spew that feeds on itself to the point of bankroll dissolution.

All in all, a decent weekend back. Hope y'all had fun this Super Bowl weekend.

2 operations, and talk of a mysterious orgy, you slut!

BTW it's absolutely mental that you can work 60/80 hour weeks and still fit in some poker. I've always managed to justify my poker laziness by telling myself I have a full time job and commitments with 3 bands, but in reality that only takes up 40-50 hours of my time, and sometimes not even that.

I dropped to 2 25nl 6m BI tonight in a hundred hands and hung it up. They're all feesh, but I wasn't playing goot. Not up to the grind. I'll get 'em back tomorrow. Gonna post some stuff and reread more PNLH for the book club chat.

Searching for rethreads has me coming across interesting posts from the past. I'm going to start a "Hump Day Bump" where I bump some classic BC thread each Wednesday. And I'm thinking of some kind of Inspirational bump/rethread for Fridays. Mondays are rethreads. So I better do that.

Last thing I'm thinking is inspired by Stax and nuts who are offering coaching for free. They're both doing it at higher stakes (where guys like me might benefit). I'm thinking I might offer some kind of group session at 10nl, or maybe some free coaching and HH reviews for those who participate in my classic rethread/bumps. IDK, just thinking out loud...if you can even call it thinkin' :P

This was some funny photoshopping shit, imo:

Originally Posted by XxStacksxX

Well shit!

I'm really just in here getting this figured out so I can make it my signature. The thread got locked before I saw it, so I'm having to "retro" the image code.

Stacks, please please please please please DON'T delete that!!! It's my sig like forever.

Originally Posted by Robb

I dropped to 2 25nl 6m BI tonight in a hundred hands and hung it up. They're all feesh, but I wasn't playing goot. Not up to the grind. I'll get 'em back tomorrow.

This is what will keep you a winning player Robb. Nice stuff.

Originally Posted by Robb

This was some funny photoshopping shit, imo:

Originally Posted by XxStacksxX

Well shit!

I'm really just in here getting this figured out so I can make it my signature. The thread got locked before I saw it, so I'm having to "retro" the image code.

Stacks, please please please please please DON'T delete that!!! It's my sig like forever.

Robb - I'm not sure what you mean here asking Stacks not to delete that. Are you talking about the image? If you want the picture you can right-click on it, then save it to your computer and use it however you want. You probably know this. I'm just confused.

I'm just goofing around. If you read the threads with Stacks and a certain noobie here the last couple of days, that's just really funny. I'm just letting Stacks know his humor was appreciated. I wish the threads hadn't gotten out of hand, but when he posted that, no matter what you thought of anything prior, you just had to laugh. I mean, I almost fell out of my chair I was laughing so hard. And yes, sometime this weekend, I'll probably dl the jpeg and upload it somewhere myself to save the trouble of photoshopping myself ('cuz I'd have to :P ) if Stacks ever decided to take offline.

I was just catching myself up on your thread here... The Offspring, "She's Got Issues" came out years ago. Where you from homey?

Originally Posted by dev

I was just catching myself up on your thread here... The Offspring, "She's Got Issues" came out years ago. Where you from homey?

LoL. Just heard it on Pandora, so I got confused, I guess. That happens when you get older.

Where you been? Glad to see you posting again. Take a few weeks off?

Hey Robb, thought I'd quote you something I wrote in my Op a while back:

Ok, promised to talk some poker stuff. Heres where my thoughts have been lately. Ranges and how we can affect our opponents ranges.

Like, we all should be aware of ranges. ISF etc have ground on about them for ages, but I dunno, for me obviously it takes some time to sink in. Its kind of freaky when we think about it. Our opponent has one specific hand. Thats it. He either has a better hand than us or not. However to be profitable, we work in ranges, and somehow it works. I'm not sure why, but it does. I take it on faith.

Anyway, what has basically missed me till now, is how we can affect our opponents range. He has one, so what can we do to change it? At first it doesnt make sense, but lets look at an example:

Average TAG opp raises from the button, and we're in the SB with AQo. His range is very wide since he's somewhat positionally aware and knows he can raise profitably there with a lot of hands. We're way ahead of his range, so obviously we should raise right? However, think what happens when we raise. He probably sees us as decent tag, and we're saying we want to play a big pot OOP against a fellow TAG. He should be aware enough to know our range is fairly tight there. Maybe we're bluffing, but he's in a bad spot to find out. So he only calls us with stuff like 77+, AK. Maybe AQ. Perhaps AJs if he's confident postflop.

Look what happenned to his range. We've gone from well ahead of his range, to behind his range. So by raising, we've moved from a spot where we're well ahead of his range, to manipulating his range to now be behind it. In effect, WE changed his range.

So when playing v's an opponents range, we need to consider what effect our actions will have on our opponents range, and whether thats an effect we really want.

Thats basically the gist of what I was getting at with the 3-bet stuff (and Spenda was the one who mostly openned my eyes to it). When we have a hand we want to play and someones raised ahead of us, we should ask whether we want to play against his raising range, or his 3-bet calling/4-bet range. Thats the starting basis for our 'value' 3-bet range.

Originally Posted by bjsaust

Hey Robb, thought I'd quote you something I wrote in my Op a while back:

Ok, promised to talk some poker stuff. Heres where my thoughts have been lately. Ranges and how we can affect our opponents ranges.

Like, we all should be aware of ranges. ISF etc have ground on about them for ages, but I dunno, for me obviously it takes some time to sink in. Its kind of freaky when we think about it. Our opponent has one specific hand. Thats it. He either has a better hand than us or not. However to be profitable, we work in ranges, and somehow it works. I'm not sure why, but it does. I take it on faith.

Anyway, what has basically missed me till now, is how we can affect our opponents range. He has one, so what can we do to change it? At first it doesnt make sense, but lets look at an example:

Average TAG opp raises from the button, and we're in the SB with AQo. His range is very wide since he's somewhat positionally aware and knows he can raise profitably there with a lot of hands. We're way ahead of his range, so obviously we should raise right? However, think what happens when we raise. He probably sees us as decent tag, and we're saying we want to play a big pot OOP against a fellow TAG. He should be aware enough to know our range is fairly tight there. Maybe we're bluffing, but he's in a bad spot to find out. So he only calls us with stuff like 77+, AK. Maybe AQ. Perhaps AJs if he's confident postflop.

Look what happenned to his range. We've gone from well ahead of his range, to behind his range. So by raising, we've moved from a spot where we're well ahead of his range, to manipulating his range to now be behind it. In effect, WE changed his range.

So when playing v's an opponents range, we need to consider what effect our actions will have on our opponents range, and whether thats an effect we really want.

Thats basically the gist of what I was getting at with the 3-bet stuff (and Spenda was the one who mostly openned my eyes to it). When we have a hand we want to play and someones raised ahead of us, we should ask whether we want to play against his raising range, or his 3-bet calling/4-bet range. Thats the starting basis for our 'value' 3-bet range.

Thanks, man. I will work on it. BTW, read all 7 of your Microstakes Thoughts post from the BC. I've got them on my master list. Searching for vintage threads has got me skimming through some awesome (and awful) content. At some point, I'll stop digging up new stuff and read through and try to digest all the good stuff I've found. But I like the "Thoughts." Simple, straightforward, short and right on target.

Do something like that in the BC again? One of those threads started me on a 12x bankroll increase in 4 months.

I think I'll post my thoughts here about 3betting, cold calling and folding. I get the ToP idea that we bluff with the very best hands we would fold. So our 3bet light range needs to be hands w/ some value but that we don't want to call for value.

In LP with 100bb effective stacks, we have the following PFR's (MP).

LAGG = PFR 20
TAGG = PFR 12
Nit = PFR 6

For the LAGG, we can cold call a pretty wide range for value. All pp's we don't 3bet, KJ+, ATs+, AJ+ and maybe QJs / JTs. Suppose the LAGG folds 50% to 3bets and 4bets 20% This means he 4bets the top 4% of his range and plays 5 - 10% for a call. Here we can 3bet TT+ for value, imo.

So with the LAGG, we win 4bb's half the time, get our money in with lots of value in a big pot 30% of the time, and have to ditch half our range to a 4bet 20%.

For the TAGG, we can't call as much for value. We'll set hunt 22-TT and call with KQ and AJ, basically. Suppose the TAGG folds only 40% to 3bet (which seems typical for lots of the regs in my game) and 4bets about 2%. Now, at 50nl, I'm finally bumping into villains who call 3bets w/ AA. They mainly 4bet AK, KK and some QQ. So the 3bet call range is about 7% of hands, that includes AA but not QQ, KK or AK (for simplicity - in actuality, each of these hands is in each range at different times). That leaves villains calling 3bets w/ AA, 88 - JJ, AJ, AQ, KQ and some suited Ace/broadway combos. Hands like TT and certainly JJ can play well against that range. So if a TAGG can't fold to a 3bet, we end doing well.

For the NIT, we probably can't 3bet him light. Some nits will fold half their hands preflop to a 3bet, but you can't make it pay enough. We'll just 3bet him for value w/ KK and maybe even just flat AK. For cold calling, we'll just set hunt with 22-TT, call with KQs, AQ and AJs, and play JJ and QQ very carefully postflop.

All right, I've gotta get the kids to bed. I've put down what I'm thinking about ranges. I will think about what types of hands we could 3bet light in different situations.

I'm realizing that while a wide 4bet range forces us to fold some, it "scrapes" off some premium hands so our 3bet range plays better against the call 3bet range. And we want to look for villains who call the 3bet with a wide range, then we can expand our 3betting for value.

How and where to 3bet light, IDK, but I'll be thinking about it and post it in here soon.

I will also mention something else before I sign off. I got through 10nl and 25nl without ever really flatting much, even in position. Kind of a blunt axe approach. So most 50nl regs know what to do with their cold call range much better than I do. I beat 25nl and lower by raising like crazy and shoving weak-tighties off their hands postflop.

So while I suck at cold calling for value, I'm getting tons better at it. My 50nl FR stats for the last 10k hands are something like 21/16, and since I never limp that (I think) means I'm calling about 5% of the time, usually in the HJ or later.

Anyway, learning to 3bet correctly (and pick hands to 3bet light) means understanding how to play competently when I flat call, and keeping that range profitable. Which I'm learning to do better.

Wouldn't you flat call vs a lagg with smaller SCs? I wish I had some recent data to look at to back this up, but I'm on a site that doesn't play well with tracking software. I would think calling in position vs. a lagg with 45s+ would be profitable. Granted, it depends on how often they cbet and fold to a raise (when we're semibluffing) and how often they cbet and then check/fold the turn. I think most laggs would have a lot of trouble playing OOP vs. a range that includes all the scs in addition to the pairs and some broadways.

The other thing about the flat-vs.-lagg range I really don't like is the KJo and AJo and maybe even the ATs. If they're not raising like 25%+, I think we're in a tough spot on a lot of flops with these hands. It seems your thinking hand value and I'm thinking playability.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nehhH9rfnaw

Originally Posted by dev

Wouldn't you flat call vs a lagg with smaller SCs? I wish I had some recent data to look at to back this up, but I'm on a site that doesn't play well with tracking software. I would think calling in position vs. a lagg with 45s+ would be profitable. Granted, it depends on how often they cbet and fold to a raise (when we're semibluffing) and how often they cbet and then check/fold the turn. I think most laggs would have a lot of trouble playing OOP vs. a range that includes all the scs in addition to the pairs and some broadways.

The other thing about the flat-vs.-lagg range I really don't like is the KJo and AJo and maybe even the ATs. If they're not raising like 25%+, I think we're in a tough spot on a lot of flops with these hands. It seems your thinking hand value and I'm thinking playability.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nehhH9rfnaw

Yeah, I got tired and didn't finish the post. I'll edit some, maybe tomorrow. Thanks for your thoughts. It just takes awhile to think through every range and every possible line (makes me tiny brain hurt).

I have been successful playing hands like ATs and KJ against the LAGG's lately. I know it results oriented, but it's like "cbet flop, check turn" is the new min-raise. Everybody's doing it. Even the LAGG's.

Originally Posted by Robb

Originally Posted by dev

Wouldn't you flat call vs a lagg with smaller SCs? I wish I had some recent data to look at to back this up, but I'm on a site that doesn't play well with tracking software. I would think calling in position vs. a lagg with 45s+ would be profitable. Granted, it depends on how often they cbet and fold to a raise (when we're semibluffing) and how often they cbet and then check/fold the turn. I think most laggs would have a lot of trouble playing OOP vs. a range that includes all the scs in addition to the pairs and some broadways.

The other thing about the flat-vs.-lagg range I really don't like is the KJo and AJo and maybe even the ATs. If they're not raising like 25%+, I think we're in a tough spot on a lot of flops with these hands. It seems your thinking hand value and I'm thinking playability.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nehhH9rfnaw

Yeah, I got tired and didn't finish the post. I'll edit some, maybe tomorrow. Thanks for your thoughts. It just takes awhile to think through every range and every possible line (makes me tiny brain hurt).

I have been successful playing hands like ATs and KJ against the LAGG's lately. I know it results oriented, but it's like "cbet flop, check turn" is the new min-raise. Everybody's doing it. Even the LAGG's.

Wait, I'm doing that...

Now that's just creepy.