BR Management for people with balls

Okay so like check this out. The next person who posts about 20 buyins being enough to move up to the next level of stakes in NLHE is getting kicked in the fucking nuts if it involves 25nl or higher. Here's why.

First I want to make this very clear: shit happens in poker. I mean for real, some fat bastard wins the WSOP in 2003, and like a year later the goddamn world flips on it's head for NLHE. Poker is crazy. Shit happens in poker to you, to me, to good players and to bad players. If you're not prepared for the shit that happens, you won't make it. Period.

Let me repeat this because it's so important: shit happens. I mean shit, by some fucking miracle and with help from the people here and other places, I somehow made a little over $100/hour in January. That sounds all fine and dandy, but after about 25k hands, I was running bad to the tune of around -$2350 on all-ins.

For all of you younger folks (including myself), do you know how fucking sick it feels to know that you're playing really well in a limit that you've just moved up to but that you're down more in a week than your parents make in a month? It's like getting kicked in the nuts by a fucking mule every 5 seconds the whole time you're running bad. If I type at 60 words/minute, then it's like getting kicked in the nuts three times while I typed that last sentence.

All of us guys know what to do when we're likely to take a shot to the nuts: we wear a fucking cup. Bankroll Management is your cup.

If you want a little cheap ass $1.00 thin as fuck cup for your nads from the Dollar Store, then play with 15-20 buy-ins. If you want a hardcore steel muay thai cup that can take shots from a fucking jackhammer and still leave your nuts unrattled and silky smooth, then play with more.

On a related note, every discussion on BR management centres around when to move up, when personally I think the decision of when to move down is a much more important one. Of course tieing in with your post, the more buyins you have when you move up, the more kicks in the nuts you can take before needing to move back down.

Welcome to FTR, Samuel L Jackson

Bjs, the decision on when to move down, when observing proper BR, is simply a function of your roll. Moving up, however, requires a lot more thought, mostly about whether you have the talent or experience, confidence and thick skin, to move up.

Thats how it should be, yes. But how many people move up because they have X (lets say 25) buyins, because thats what they read in some guide or someone told them, but then wait till their roll is demolished before finally moving back down, because they either ignored or never read anything about putting a stop-loss in place for their movedown decision?

lol I won 2400 in a MTT, bankroll went up to 2600 so I started playing 100NL, won 500 there, then moved down to 50NL cause I didn't want to just ahead too much.

Listen up motherfuckers.

Moving down is like moving up except it's easier since you're going to be playing against a bunch of relative dumbfucks. If you're getting your ass kicked at one level, why the poop wouldn't you move down and play against people who aren't as good? I know why -- because you're a dumbass who's too proud to play the same game with smaller numbers. Thank you for your contribution to the poker economy; your donation is needed post-UIGEA and much appreciated.

Yes they deserved to die and I hope they burn in hell.

*Last edited by spoonitnow on Wed, 13 Feb 2008, 7:52pm; edited 1 time in total*

This is you without good BR management.

Edit: Btw this is of Joe Son taking shots from Keith Hackney in a very early UFC.

to each his own. i have no problem jumping up limits when i have 20 buyins because i have no problem moving down when i drop 3-4 of said buyins. wheres the problem here? i here what your saying if someone has no discipline to move down but not everyone is the same.

Sry but this is only for ballas in training, not the casual player.

NEXT?

define ballas in training

I dunno what spoonitnow is on, but I'm liking it Very Happy

.

all I can say is if you have been playing poker for more than a year, how's your BR management treated you so far? Where are you now?

Spoon? When did you start back to poker again? Where are you now? What has been your BR discipline?

That's my point!

kick ass thread spoon Very Happy

although i'm a level below hobbyist

but flomo, you're a level above balla

I love this thread, and completely agree - but I want to point out that I believe this should be for the hobbyist as well. Spoon is absolutely right in the first thread about getting kicked in the nuts. Think about it - if you lose 2 to 3 buyins on a bankroll of 20 in one night - that's a bad night. That's 15% of your roll. That's a kick in the balls - you got beat.

Now comes the part that actually matters - because the money doesn't - losing 15% of your roll in one night actually may start making you think about your play - can you really beat the people at the table - what's going on here? Should I move down - am I that bad? What happens next - WHAP, doubts, bad play and you lose more - 3 more buy-ins at that level and now your down 30%

Great discussion on the newbie spiral of death - right?

Where am I going - recreational players - there are two types - ones that are here to improve their game to high level - and people that just like to play poker and could care less - otherwise known as FISH. They are the ones that good recs and pros a like want at the tables.

So I would suggest that the same Bankroll Management would also apply to recreational players that are serious about the game - as well as the - um, BALLAS.

Very insightful post, pilotpa23
Applause

alright... i'm inspired.... (a little depressed... but inspired)

I will not move up to $100NL until BR>$4k.

very good post spoon...

There are players here and on other sites I visit that don't even import there hands into PT until the session is over. They have no clue if they are running good or bad, money wise. They reload with impunity, shut down bad tables with no concern that they have left money behind, and only concern themselves with their play. First tab they go into in PT is Game notes, and look over the big hands. They check some stats, and then if at all, they look at the session.

Daniel Negreanu wrote once in an article that when he played cash games for a living back in the day, before he was famous, he worked out his hourly rate over several months to be about $80/hr. He then stopped counting daily wins and losses. He would spend more time recording and memorizing hands during his play to analyze later. He knew that he made $80 an hour so why bother with the wins and losses, he wanted to focus on the game. Even on days where he would win several thousand dollars or win some of the biggest pots in his life, he never felt anything other than it was another great day playing poker for $80/hr. He realized that he could spend his mental energy on thinking about the play at the table and not "OMG, I'm down 3 buy ins"

What an awesome thread.

Hi spoon

Am I wrong in the impression that play style can have a strong effect on up and down swings? A super aggressive player, a Gus Hansen, for instance, should expect to weather much bigger swings than a super conservative player, a Barry Greenstein.

If I'm not wrong, I'd say that Bankroll Management should take play style into account. Wouldn't a conservative style make it safer to player a shallower bankroll for a particular level than hyper aggressive style?

How much of a difference does it make? I have no idea. Any thoughts?

I think Spoon is overstating his case a little. An upswing is just as likely as a downswing, and once you're up from 20 to 25 buyins you do have a buffer, both in terms of confidence and bankroll. But perhaps this should be seen as taking shots, rather than "moving up" per se.

its ineresting how this brm thingy is discussed over and over again.

I totally disagree, tho I love spoons way to start a discussion.

Beside skills and stakes it´s a function of emotional stability, risk aversion, table conditions on your site and your strategic approach to the game. BRM must be taylored for every player individually and no general BRM exists above 25NL.

Theres so much more to consider than realizing the fact that u could drop several buy ins within two days.
Question is, how do u react to certain br issues? Do u become scared money with 20 BI left or do u get sloppy when playing overrolled? Do the games at your next level become significantly harder or is there only little difference? Are u aiming at becoming a full timer or do u just want to be better than the other 9 at your table?

A million questions everyone needs to ask himself.

Instead of discussing the same topic for the gazillionst time and trying to explain "why my BRM approach is the best" I´d rather see a discussion about how a smart and individual BRM plan could be elaborated

Thanks, Spoonitnow. You said it a lot better than I could.

When I started playing online poker, around 2002, I deposited $50, built it slowly up to $400, and then decided to "take a shot" with half my bankroll at $1/$2 NL. Third hand in, I gave it all away with KK vs. AA. Now, even if I'd gotten lucky and doubled up, I fully expect I would have lost it eventually, as I was in over my head.

I know a few other "shot takers" personally, and they might have a great week, add $1500 to a $500 bankroll, but in the end they give it all back. No matter how good you are, if you keep risking a huge piece of your bankroll, you'll bust out eventually.

If moving up is a result of BR and not skills, make one buy-in a day and move up every twenty days. There is no need to take shots. If you can beat the level then beat it for one buy-in a day. After 20 days you have doubled your BR. If you can't beat the level then moving up is of no concern.

5PTBB/100 or one buy-in every thousand hands. Heck, play 2K hands and move up every 10 days. You could play $200NL in 30 days if you are playing $25NL now and never take shots.

man, its their money
let them do with it what they want

nice post by the way Wink

If I have a bankroll of 200 cant I just ist at a 2nl table camp out for AA and then double my roll? Seems a lot easier than all these bankroll calculation mumbojumbo

Doing things on autopilot in poker is probably always -EV.

Good post.

And just so people can see it, 3 weeks ago I had 2200, today I hit 1250. I play 50NL so that is about exactly a 20 buyin downswing...

Finally I think it is turning around today though. weeeeeeee

I love Ong-Bak, check out Warrior King as well, awesome film. What is your opinion on multi-tabling and BR management, do you think you should have a larger BR and therefore more buy ins if you plan on 4 or 5 tabling?

lolololololol...

being way overrolled is for pussies who have fragile egos Wink

if you have a high variance ultra-aggro style however, you may need a larger than "standard" roll due to the natural standard deviations you may encounter.

*ahem* I meen...

how is it to move up tha levels whun they could take lots of the mobnies I has so eeesialy???

I have had multiple 30+BI downswings.

That being said, you sure as hell can use the 20 buy in rule, just make sure you immediately move down once your under 20 BI's. A lot of people don't have that discipline though, so it doesn't work. I for one am one of those people!

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BR Management for people with balls

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BR Management for people with balls