Can you really make $ in micro stakes.

Ive been on this forum for about a year and have learned a great deal. I really value the input and opinions here. I have been up and down in bankroll for the last 2 years and cant seem to grind a profit in small stakes. I have tried lag, tag, rock, set mining, nut camping, etc and can not make a profit in 2nl,5nl,10nl or 25nl. I look up stats at an average table and find that almost all the players are either breakeven or losing players. How can you win at these stakes?

Have you tried putting people on ranges?

Im pretty good on placing villians on ranges. Even without Pokertracker, I can find a reg and guess the preflop ranges fairly easily. It is the players that dont have many hands that I find trouble. It just seems that in lower stakes that fold equity is laughable to villians and that takes away alot from the strategies that this site implores.

Have you tried putting people on ranges postflop?

Have you tried value betting?

What about folding?

Yes on postflop as well.

Originally Posted by paratrooper99

Im pretty good on placing villians on ranges. Even without Pokertracker, I can find a reg and guess the preflop ranges fairly easily. It is the players that dont have many hands that I find trouble.

You can find regs without using PT3, but have trouble with villains that you don't have hands on? You just contradicted yourself.

You should try playing without a HUD at a reduced number of tables, and reviewing your sessions afterwards. I guarantee you'll pay more attention and begin to make better reads and range estimates.

Does anyone have a good profit on microstakes over alot of hands?

BR at 330, started at 50 playing 2nl over about 70k hands (god i suck, it shouldnt have taken that long)

Originally Posted by paratrooper99

Does anyone have a good profit on microstakes over alot of hands?

I think everyone that's posted in this thread does.

Study, discipline, and bankroll management. From your original post it seems you're lacking the discipline part. As for your above question, if you've been studying this forum for a year, you should already know the answer.

Originally Posted by paratrooper99

Does anyone have a good profit on microstakes over alot of hands?

what do you mean? if you are looking to grind a roll to take to High Stakes Poker from exclusively micro-stakes online then no, no-one has a "good" profit" over a lot of hands. however, anyone who applies themself to the game - regularly posting hands for discussion/criticism in the apt format in FTR and studying the most basic theory posts/articles about pot odds/implied odds/blind stealing/equity/ranges etc. can beat these games for enough to move up in stakes and eventually make a "good profit".

if your question is "does anyone win money at micro-stakes?" then look up any of the monthly BC graph threads.

The good news is the answer is easy: You don't study enough, you don't post enough hands, you don't discuss poker enough with players better than you, and the list goes on. Try coming into the #flopturnriver IRC channel to talk with the 20-30 people who are in there all the time about poker.

The bad news is (because you're a human being) there's a high chance you won't allow yourself to get better because it would require you to realize you're not nearly as good as you think you are, and because it will take some serious work to improve.

In any event, good luck.

http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/2368/microdonkin.png

{Edit: Changed to a link because it's really wide. --spoonitnow}

disclaimer: +$240 in aiev due to IRC game flips

Yes. Post your stats. Post your hands. Bluff less. Value bet more. Learn to love b/f.

!luck

admitting that one sucks at poker;
recognizing greater players that have the ability to help you improve;
examining past errors with the help of a sponsor (experienced member);<---this one works just fine
learning how to go about fixing these errors;
learning to destroy microstakes with this new found knowledge;
helping others that are blinded in their judgement by how good they really think they are.

Originally Posted by paratrooper99

I look up stats at an average table and find that almost all the players are either breakeven or losing players. How can you win at these stakes?

Have you really thought about what you have written there? And following on from that do you think about why you are playing a hand the way that you do. Do you play it the same against a maniac as you would against a nit?.You talk about fold equity and don't think about the most common mistake micro players make which is calling too much. If they call too much how the hell are you going to have fold equity?.What do you think the winning regs are going to do....stay stuck at 2nl or 5nl and rape the 2nl fish for peanuts or move up and keep moving up to a stake where they can make decent money.

The long term regs at a stake are there because they aren't good enough to beat the stake they are playing so they will continue to stay at that stake and therefore when you look them up they will be break even or losing.

http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...er-181599.html

Originally Posted by paratrooper99

...and can not make a profit in 2nl,5nl,10nl or 25nl

Ahem...

If you didn't make a profit at 2nl, why would you play 5nl?
If you didn't make a profit at 2nl and 5nl, why would you play 10nl?
If you didn't make a profit at 2nl, 5nl and 10nl, why would you play 25nl?

Took a $10 BR to $1700 in a little over a year last year. So I'm going to say yea... micro's are beatable.

Except: NO MONEY FR, EVERYONE'S SOLID

{Deleted Some Posts}

Stop trolling please.

Something is glaringly wrong with your play if you are not winning at the micros. There are no secrets. Everything is presented in this forum. Most of the high stakes players started at the micros. I bet you could become a winner in less than a week if you really put an effort at it and talk to the right people/read the right stuff/put the hours in.

I have a hint for you at the very low stakes. Pay very special attention to the *BET SIZES*. You won't always know what hand you are opp has but you'll very often have idea when your beat.

Here are a few more....


1. Don't worry about getting bluffed. Fold when you are beat.


2. Value bet more and bluff less. Use small bet sizes to bluff, for value bets determine the value of your hand and bet that amount. When you have the nuts, go all in by the river. Do NOT slowplay big hands.


3. Consider going all in with AA. Not too long ago my all in was called by AK with ~250 BB. I won and doubled the max buy in. My opp was in disgusting miserable shape on this hand -- for mucho BBs. Let them make huge mistakes.


4. Consider min raising PF with speculative hands like small pairs, weak suited aces, suited connectors in late position or on the button.


5. Copy and past interesting hands to your word processor, then go over those hands. If you lost ask yourself if you could have lossed less and when you win ask yourself if you could have lost more. Also consider copy and pasting very large pots that other player are in, and hands where people go all in PF, etc.

Figure out answers to questions like, "when I have AK how many bb will I call when someone goes allin ?".


6. Don't pay any attention whatsoever to what you see on TV. TV poker, High Stakes poker and WPT are completely different poker than low stakes. Pros get more value from deceiving each other and those games all have antes which increases the pay off for bluffing.


7. Finally, for me, the most important thing to remember is what I call THINK TIME. When I'm acting too quickly I'm playing poorly. Take your time, think thru what you are doing. This is most especially true when you get raised, you are facing a big bet or you are thinking about going all in.


Take your time.

outlaw should post his graph, iirc he makes about $2k/month playing 25nl.
Yes, micros are beatable. All the tools are available to you, up to you
best of luck!

Thanks for all the posts. Any suggestions on what threads to start with and I do play Full Ring. Should I play short handed?

Play whichever you're most comfortable with. I was kidding about the no money fr thing.

Start with the BC, post hands, comment on hands that are posted. Figure out what the flaws in your thinking process are and correct them. Easy game yo.

Originally Posted by paratrooper99

It is the players that dont have many hands that I find trouble. It just seems that in lower stakes that fold equity is laughable to villians and that takes away alot from the strategies that this site implores.

It sounds like you might be "imploring some strategies" at poor times (like bluffing people who won't fold).

Unknown players (especially non-fullstacked players) at the microstakes should be assumed to be loose-passive until they prove otherwise. It's common for new taggs to learn "too much", and misapply some concepts resulting in FPS (fancy play syndrome).

The microstakes are easy to beat with straightforward play -- it just takes the discipline to play a solid game consistently.

Play ABC poker which essentially boils down to this:

- Only play hands you would raise (and if it's not raised yet, then do so)

- Fish don't bluff. Just because you think there's no way he's holding 75o from EP for the straight, he is. Trust me, lost several buy-ins from that shit yesterday.

- Learn continuation betting, value betting, and to Bet/Fold. Learn where and when to apply these techniques. If you don't know what they are, a simple google search will tell you along with some nice strategies. That's what I did for value betting yesterday.

- Put your opponents on a hand range. I know this will be hard to do on some fish/maniac, but chances are if he opened 4x bb in EP, he's holding premium hands. Learn to watch what he does for future help on putting him on a range.

- Loose the fancy shit. Just because you think you know to Float, Slow play, delay c-bet, or bluff 3 streets, doesn't mean you actually know how to do it right. Chances are, it's not going to be helpful on fish anyways.

-Each limit is broken down into certain aspects you need to learn. For the lower limits, it's pre-flop and post flop play as well as positional advantages and what they mean to you. When you get higher, then you'll start to learn the fancy crap and realize how much of a donk you were for trying to use it in the LOLlimits.

- IRC. Read it. Join in it. Learn from it. Love it. : IRC Post


- You're still reading this post? Get your ass moving. You won't get anywhere in poker without a little work.

Originally Posted by TheMaverik91

- Loose the fancy shit. Just because you think you know to Float, Slow play, delay c-bet, or bluff 3 streets, doesn't mean you actually know how to do it right. Chances are, it's not going to be helpful on fish anyways.

I think that watching too many videos can cause this. Just cause M2M, Spenda and CodeRed do it doesn't mean you know how to do it correctly

Originally Posted by TheMaverik91

You won't get anywhere in poker without more work than you've probably done on anything in your life.

fyp

This is really sound advise. Not that all the others aren't giving good info as well but I read this and really liked it!

Originally Posted by shallam

I have a hint for you at the very low stakes. Pay very special attention to the *BET SIZES*. You won't always know what hand you are opp has but you'll very often have idea when your beat.

Here are a few more....


1. Don't worry about getting bluffed. Fold when you are beat.


2. Value bet more and bluff less. Use small bet sizes to bluff, for value bets determine the value of your hand and bet that amount. When you have the nuts, go all in by the river. Do NOT slowplay big hands.


3. Consider going all in with AA. Not too long ago my all in was called by AK with ~250 BB. I won and doubled the max buy in. My opp was in disgusting miserable shape on this hand -- for mucho BBs. Let them make huge mistakes.


4. Consider min raising PF with speculative hands like small pairs, weak suited aces, suited connectors in late position or on the button.


5. Copy and past interesting hands to your word processor, then go over those hands. If you lost ask yourself if you could have lossed less and when you win ask yourself if you could have lost more. Also consider copy and pasting very large pots that other player are in, and hands where people go all in PF, etc.

Figure out answers to questions like, "when I have AK how many bb will I call when someone goes allin ?".


6. Don't pay any attention whatsoever to what you see on TV. TV poker, High Stakes poker and WPT are completely different poker than low stakes. Pros get more value from deceiving each other and those games all have antes which increases the pay off for bluffing.


7. Finally, for me, the most important thing to remember is what I call THINK TIME. When I'm acting too quickly I'm playing poorly. Take your time, think thru what you are doing. This is most especially true when you get raised, you are facing a big bet or you are thinking about going all in.


Take your time.

I just played 25NL for the first time in weeks and akdlfasdf is it soft as shit. It was infested with regulars who are absolutely terrible. This is more of a tilt post as I lost a bunch but you're good enough to crush 25NL.

25nl confirmed soft as a baby's ass, just don't do retarded shit like bluff 3 streets with no equity.

Originally Posted by dranger7070

25nl confirmed soft as a baby's ass, just don't do retarded shit like bluff 3 streets with no equity.

Exactly what I did vs a reg in a 3bet pot 100bb deep. His Khi is good (he called the 3bet) after calling a $9 bet into $11 on the turn chasing the flush draw.

Originally Posted by kmind

Exactly what I did vs a reg in a 3bet pot 100bb deep. His Khi is good (he called the 3bet) after calling a $9 bet into $11 on the turn chasing the flush draw.

Obviously you never bluffed the 3rd street or it would have worked!

Great tips/ideas. I even forget the little things like bluff less, I just put that in my notes. Thank you!!

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