www.flopturnriver.com

Poker Forum

Over 1,246,000 Posts!

Already Registered? Username: Password: Remember Forgot Password
Tweet

daven rant

LinkBack

Thread Tools

Display Modes

daven

07-20-2009, 07:17 AM Post subject: daven rant

#1 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Aug 2007

Location: soaking up ethanol, moving on up

Posts: 5,801

The obsession with loose and tight and aggressive and passive and 3-betting more or a (wtf!?) polarised 4-betting range or whatever is flavour of the day isn't what winning at poker is about, not in isolation.

Nor target stats that suddenly become sub-par when game conditions change or you don't know how or when to play the ranges these numbers suggest.

Poker is a series of situations with huge areas of common ground and subtle differences that are of incredible importance. Any situation is modified by a range of variables.AKs on the button facing a limp, a raise and a 3-bet before it gets to you. What to do? Options are call, fold, or 4-bet. All are correct - depending on the modifying factors.

And this is what becomes ever more difficult, identifying the table conditions and how they affect optimal decision-making.

There are standard or default actions. 3-bet AA from the SB vs UTG+1 open and two callers. These need to become obvious, instinct. But not simply by rote learning, instead by investigating and understanding why. Why is it bad to be out of position 5-way to a flop with aces? Why don't you want to be on the cutoff with 77 and calling an MP open and HJ call with three aggro shortstacks left to act. So what is better here? Fold? 3-bet? The more situations you have given in depth thought and analysis to, the more that the influence of modifying factors on any given situation will become clear.

I have spent loads of hours/hands grinding out huge volumes of low winrate sessions.
Then tilting and having losing sessions smash that win-rate. And, finally and thankfully, a period of variance in the "wrong" direction that has finally provided another poker a-ha moment.
Behind 15 buyins on All In Expected Value over 20k hands and tilting and moaning I read a post from Jyms about the why of decisions. And at the same time realised that being 15buyins behind AIEV over 20k hands should still leave me in the black at the stakes where it occurred - if I was playing well.

So, about ten days ago, I got to work.
Assessing default plays and realising the numerous positions/situations where these "standard" default plays were at best far from MaxEV, and at worst uber-spew.
And studying the why. Especially the why of calling. Realising that you need a damn good why to be calling anytime in poker. That anytime you call you need a why that explains it being better than folding or raising. And to this, you need to answer what - what is the situation, including the relevant modifying factors. Or, better, the modifying factors are in fact part of the situation.

And, from there, the journey continues.

don't raise with the straight flush bro, nobody ever gonna call that shit
allin, reload, repeat

please read: http://www.philgalfond.com/lets-make-some-changes/

Play for FREE and practice your game at...

Join the FTR Poker Forum to disable these banners and start posting!

nish81

07-20-2009, 08:28 AM

#2 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Jun 2009

Posts: 295

This is how I think of poker or chess or any game involving decision making and analysis. The amateur/newer player approaches each decision with an individual analysis appropriate to the situation. But by the time you become more and more experienced, you will have analysed the same situations so many times that some decisions are instinctive - based on your previous analyses. Not on rote learning.

Thanks for the post daven

<JustinSKS> Tha'ts why I fold my 33 to 72o, because 7 high beats, 1 pair, donk.

JR: lets do it JUAN
JR: mono e mono
JR: man to man
JR: HU4ROLLZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ
Dealer: juan0984 folds

Carroters

07-20-2009, 11:47 AM

#3 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Mar 2008

Location: Da Amberlamps

Posts: 2,216

You play chess Nish? if so are you on FICS or have a grading?

jyms

07-20-2009, 01:28 PM

#4 (permalink)

Tilting Mod

Join Date: Feb 2006

Posts: 4,836

Great post. Definitely the right track, not sure BC is where it belongs for discussion worthy of OP's post, but BC may get something from it.

YouTube - Classified - "Oh... Canada" [Official Video]

sarbox68

07-20-2009, 03:57 PM

#5 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Sep 2006

Location: wondering where the 3 extra chairs at my 6max table came from

Posts: 871

Dude... 1) VNH, 2) I've read rants, and you sir, did not just post a rant...

A related exercise for sh!ts and giggles that I've found very helpful to break the tendency to focus on actions in isolate...

1) Go through HEM/PT and pick a hand that went to SD and had a > 20-30bb pot. Doesn't have to be yours. And shouldn't be all the time. Pick hands from people who represent all kinds of playing styles.
2) Start w/ pre-flop, bullet out every factor that would affect heroes decision -- stats, reads, position, blah blah. This obv includes thinking through ranges and the math involved. Then do the same for his actual PF decision - including what it means for his plan for the rest of the hand.
3) For the PF decision made, flip the script and take a moment to sit in vils seat. Bullet out a) how he could react and why and b) what the implications are of his actual reaction
4) Repeat all of this for every street
5) Assess the final outcome and decide whether you believe the actions were optimal, and most importantly...... why.

Rinse, repeat and above all, avoid shortcutting or skipping steps, for many hands.

nish81

07-20-2009, 05:05 PM

#6 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Jun 2009

Posts: 295

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carroters

You play chess Nish? if so are you on FICS or have a grading?

I used to play chess, but havent played for 1.5-2 years. Played mostly locally, within school and the region. I remember being graded around 1850-1950 I think, but it not by the authority that actually hands those grades out.

I pretty much stopped playing because of a lack of people to play against anymore :/ my last regular game was against a chinese sailor with tattoos all over his upper body in a seedy bar

but yeah, this being east africa there weren't many good players. so meh

<JustinSKS> Tha'ts why I fold my 33 to 72o, because 7 high beats, 1 pair, donk.

JR: lets do it JUAN
JR: mono e mono
JR: man to man
JR: HU4ROLLZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ
Dealer: juan0984 folds

Keith

07-20-2009, 06:21 PM

#7 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Nov 2008

Posts: 1,335

I don't know If Jyms is likely to agree with me after his experience this spring, but I find that I seem to do the most analysis on my own game when I'm in a losing streak. WHen I'm running hot I tend to try out new stuff ,rather than analysing why I'm running hot and probably is a massive flaw in my own game and instead of being a newbie circle of death is probably more a complacent circle of arrogance. Until the downswing comes , and I have to go back and work out what I've lapsed into doing wrong again.

Vi-Zer0Skill

07-22-2009, 02:56 AM

#8 (permalink)

Reagan's Kid
4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Nov 2006

Posts: 1,739

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keith_MM

I don't know If Jyms is likely to agree with me after his experience this spring, but I find that I seem to do the most analysis on my own game when I'm in a losing streak. WHen I'm running hot I tend to try out new stuff ,rather than analysing why I'm running hot and probably is a massive flaw in my own game and instead of being a newbie circle of death is probably more a complacent circle of arrogance. Until the downswing comes , and I have to go back and work out what I've lapsed into doing wrong again.

i like ur metaphor, i have experienced the boom/bust of this cycle 3 times. imo it's kind of like the second circle, because this is the trap of the mediocre/unmotivated players, rather than "newbs".

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carroters

Ambition is fucking great, but you're trying to dig up gold with a rocket launcher and are going to blow the whole lot to shit unless you refine your tools

bjsaust

07-22-2009, 03:15 AM

#9 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: May 2007

Location: Ballarat, Australia

Posts: 5,842

This is basically talking about the difference between learning by rote, and learning poker. Very important stuff.

Just playing to improve.

chriz01

07-22-2009, 08:41 PM

#10 (permalink)

Join Date: Jul 2009

Posts: 12

Very good post imo, worth the read.

Latest Poker News
KoRnholio	05-26-2012, 03:08 PM Australia Legalized Online Poker coming up in next 6 to 12 Months
According to an email sent out by Mark Bryan, a gaming analyst at Merrill Lynch, the Australian government plans to legalize online poker sometime in the next six to 12 months. This move will coincide ... more at Poker Blogs »

« Previous Thread | Next Thread »

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Switch to Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads You may not post replies You may not post attachments You may not edit your posts BB code is On Smilies are On [IMG] code is On HTML code is Off Trackbacks are On Pingbacks are On Refbacks are On Forum Rules

All times are GMT. The time now is 07:59 AM.

Play Texas Holdem Online, Online Texas Holdem Strategy, & Poker Forum

This is not a gambling website.

Poker Forum

Over 1,246,000 Posts!

Poker Forum

Beginners Circle

daven rant

Play for FREE and practice your game at...