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Basic Bankroll Management Math: An Instructive Example

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  1. #1
    spoonitnow's Avatar
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    Default Basic Bankroll Management Math: An Instructive Example

    I've gotten asked about this twice in the past week, which is usually when I decide to make a post about something. Here I'm going to break down the basics of bankroll management from a basic math standpoint using a simple dice game as an example.

    Introduction to Risk of Ruin and Expected Value

    Suppose you have $100,000,000 to live off of for the rest of your life, but have no way to gain an income of more than $1/hour ever for the rest of your life. You have no reason to think you'll die any time in the next 50 years.

    Someone offers to roll two 6-sided dice with you on the following conditions. They will pay you $100,000,000 if the sum of the dice is anything besides 2, but if it comes up a total of 2, then you pay them $100,000,000.

    Risk of ruin is your chance of going broke. In this scenario, the risk of ruin is 1/36 since that's your chance of rolling a 2.

    Expected value is how much you will profit on average from an action. In this scenario, the expected value is (35/36)(100000000) + (1/36)(-100000000) = $94444444, so about $94.4 million.

    Despite the fact that your expected value is extremely high, there's no way you could take this bet with the dice roll because your risk of ruin is also extremely high.

    An Improved Scenario

    Instead of betting your $100,000,000 all on one roll, what if you broke your bankroll in half, betting $50 million on the first roll, and $50 million on the second roll. In poker, this would be like playing a game with 2 buy-ins instead of 1.

    Since we're betting half of the money and everything else stays the same, our expected value is cut in half for each individual roll and becomes $47,222,222, about $47.2 million.

    So what happens to our risk of ruin? A lot of people would think it's cut in half, but that's not true. The only way we can be broke after two rolls is to lose them both, and the chance of that happening is (1/36)² = 1/1296. Instead of cutting our risk of ruin in half by moving from 1 "buy-in" to 2 "buy-ins", we've cut it down by a factor of 36!

    By doubling the number of buy-ins we use for our bankroll management in this dice game, we've cut our expected value in half for each roll which has a negative effect, but we've cut our risk of ruin down by a much higher factor.

    The Relationship to Poker

    Because of the variance in poker, you always have some risk of losing no matter what your expected value is. However, you have to achieve a balance between your risk of ruin and your expected value. Here's an example of dealing with a $5000 bankroll, assuming you can win at all games involved:

    Playing with 500 buy-ins at 10nl is making a mistake on the side of being too conservative. Playing with 5 buy-ins at 1000nl is making a mistake on the side of being too aggressive. Playing with 50 buy-ins at 100nl is about right.

    So yeah there you go. Now when people ask me to explain how and why bankroll management works and/or is necessary, I can just link them to this. Good luck.
    Last edited by spoonitnow; 11-19-2010 at 08:56 AM.
  2. #2
    Math is fun! Nice article.
  3. #3
    Thank you for the information spoon very helpful as a beginner for bankroll management.
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  4. #4
    bikes's Avatar
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    how can u not snap accept the first dice roll

    ?wut
  5. #5
    Nice, clear example illustrating the sense in employing some sort of bankroll management strategy.
    Quote Originally Posted by spoonitnow View Post
    By doubling the number of buy-ins we use for our bankroll management in this dice game, we've cut our expected value in half for each roll which has a negative effect, but we've cut our risk of ruin down by a much higher factor.
    Just to be clear, what is the negative effect here, exactly? It seems like the total expected value of the two half-sized bets is the same as the EV of the full-sized bet (though maybe I am missing some mathematical detail), so the only negative element I can think of is the time it takes to put your bankroll in action, in making/resolving the wagers.
  6. #6
    Can you explain why the EV in the second scenario is not the sum of the EV of each of the rolls and thus the same as the first scenario? ie 47.2 + 47.2 = 94.4
  7. #7
    Great post spoon and I can see it being linked many many times in the future.
    "You start the game with a full pot o’ luck and an empty pot o’ experience...
    The object is to fill the pot of experience before you empty the pot of luck."

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  8. #8
    daviddem's Avatar
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    Can you explain why the EV in the second scenario is not the sum of the EV of each of the rolls and thus the same as the first scenario? ie 47.2 + 47.2 = 94.4
    It is the same. The EV for each roll is 47.2, so total EV for both rolls = 94.4.

    There is a typo in Spoon's post though where he writes 94,444,444= approximately 95.5 (instead of 94.5, or 94.4)

    Note also that in the first scenario, you either win 100mils or loose it all, whereas in the second scenario, you also have a chance to break even (and as a consequence, you also have less chance to win 100mils than you do in the first scenario):
    Chance to loose it all: 1/36*1/36=1/1296=0.08%
    Chance to win it all: 35/36*35/36=94.52%
    Chance to break even: 100-94.52-0.08=5.4%

    Whereas in the first scenario your chance to win 100mils is 35/36=97.2%
    Last edited by daviddem; 11-18-2010 at 10:51 PM.
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  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by daviddem View Post
    It is the same. The EV for each roll is 47.2, so total EV for both rolls = 94.4.

    There is a typo in Spoon's post though where he writes 94,444,444= approximately 95.5 (instead of 94.5, or 94.4)

    Note also that in the first scenario, you either win 100mils or loose it all, whereas in the second scenario, you also have a chance to break even (and as a consequence, you also have less chance to win 100mils than you do in the first scenario):
    Chance to loose it all: 1/36*1/36=1/1296=0.08%
    Chance to win it all: 35/36*35/36=94.52%
    Chance to break even: 100-94.52-0.08=5.4%

    Whereas in the first scenario your chance to win 100mils is 35/36=97.2%

    I caught the typo, that's not what I meant. I was wondering what is the negative effect spoon refers to in this sentence:

    Quote Originally Posted by spoonitnow View Post
    By doubling the number of buy-ins we use for our bankroll management in this dice game, we've cut our expected value in half for each roll which has a negative effect, but we've cut our risk of ruin down by a much higher factor.
    You're saying that the negative effect is less chance to double up even though the overall EV is the same?
    Last edited by tyrn; 11-18-2010 at 11:06 PM.
  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by tyrn View Post
    Can you explain why the EV in the second scenario is not the sum of the EV of each of the rolls and thus the same as the first scenario? ie 47.2 + 47.2 = 94.4
    Because I suck at typing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tukka View Post
    Nice, clear example illustrating the sense in employing some sort of bankroll management strategy.

    Just to be clear, what is the negative effect here, exactly? It seems like the total expected value of the two half-sized bets is the same as the EV of the full-sized bet (though maybe I am missing some mathematical detail), so the only negative element I can think of is the time it takes to put your bankroll in action, in making/resolving the wagers.
    Because if your EV was the same, in two rolls we could make twice as much. Like if you were playing 1/2 instead of 2/4, it would take you twice as many hands to make the same amount of money if you had the same bet/100 hands win-rate.
  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Bbickes View Post
    how can u not snap accept the first dice roll
    +1
    [00:29] <daven> dc, why not check turn behind
    [00:30] <DC> daven
    [00:30] <DC> on my hand?
    [00:30] <daven> yep
    [00:30] <DC> because I am drunk
    [00:30] <daven> nice reason
    [00:30] <daven> no further questions
    [00:30] <yaawn> ^^Lol

    Problem officer...?
  12. #12
    I'd like to add that for all you noob wannabe's who ever get the feeling that you want to disregard proper bankroll management or adhere to it 'later' etc, just quit poker right now and save your useless effort for something else you are destined to fail at.

    btw I'd take the dice roll.
  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Micro2Macro View Post
    I'd like to add that for all you noob wannabe's who ever get the feeling that you want to disregard proper bankroll management or adhere to it 'later' etc, just quit poker right now and save your useless effort for something else you are destined to fail at.

    btw I'd take the dice roll.
    Idk man $5k/day for the next 50+ years seems pretty sweet.
  14. #14
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    Taking the single dice roll is a donkass move, just as much as not following proper bankroll management. 100 millions is enough for you and all your family and future offspring to live luxuriously just by placing it in next to zero risk fixed income funds. Why would you take 1 chance out of 36 to give that up and live miserably on $24/day for the rest of your life? For what added benefit? WTF are you gonna do with 200 millions that you cannot do with 100 millions?

    Not even sure I'd take the second option. 0.08% is about the same as the odds of flopping a full house with two unpaired hole cards. I am sure it's happened to all of you.
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  15. #15
    ^nit
  16. #16
    daviddem's Avatar
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    ^nit
    Right on, I am a happy $100,000,000 rich nit and I won't have to live under a bridge for the rest of my miserable existence when the deuce rolls because I gambled for an extra $100,000,000 which I wouldn't even know what the f* to do with.

    How can you all be here barking about proper bankroll management and even think of taking this stupid bet? Do you know what are the odds of a break even player loosing his 25BI roll due to variance? I don't know on top of my head, but I am damn sure it's far less than 2.8%.

    Here you go: you have 0.000003% chance of loosing 25 coin flips in a row. That's about one chance in 33 millions.
    Last edited by daviddem; 11-19-2010 at 09:04 AM.
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  17. #17
    spoonitnow's Avatar
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  18. #18
    daviddem's Avatar
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    ...OK, if they're all trolls, then I've been had... I just hope they all are...
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  19. #19
    NICE posts... youre awesome! I enjoy reading these
  20. #20
    daviddem's Avatar
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    ... nice one, I walked right into it!
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  21. #21
    The dice roll example doesn't take into account at least a factor that can apply when talking about actual poker bankrolls.

    It's that the size of a given player's roll can be insignificant relative to one's overall finances. For instance, let's say Bill Gates' roll is $3k, and that using a 30 buyin BRM guideline, he plays no higher than 100nl. If he suddenly decides to buy into the WSOP ME for $10k, it may seem like irresponsible BRM, but in terms of his overall financial picture, $10k is insignificant. Therefore, so is the down side of losing his entire roll in one tournament.

    Granted my opinion isn't universally shared, but I believe the importance of BRM varies with how significant a person's roll is to said person.
  22. #22
    BooG690's Avatar
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    Bill Gates' bankroll is whatever portion of his moneys that he dedicates to poker. If he bought into the WSOP ME, his bankroll was never $3K. Basically, one's bankroll isn't JUST the money you have online, it may even be money you have in your bank account.

    I only keep ~20 BIs online and keep the rest in my bank account where I feel it's safer and is earning interest. However, the 20 BIs online plus whatever is in my bank account (that is set aside for poker) is my poker bankroll...NOT just the 20 BIs online.

    Players also seem to have a problem with having moneys on two or more different poker rooms. There really shouldn't be a distinction between "my Full Tilt Poker bankroll and my PokerStars bankroll" even though I see many players make this distinction.
    That's how winners play; we convince the other guy he's making all the right moves.
  23. #23
    lol
  24. #24
    daviddem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Micro2Macro View Post
    lol
    Well done m2m, you got me good! Bbickes as well
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  25. #25
    bikes's Avatar
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    lol @ the people who think im leveling

    ?wut
  26. #26
    daviddem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bbickes View Post
    lol @ the people who think im leveling
    What's the plan for your extra $100,000,000 then? (things you haven't yet done with your first $100,000,000)
    What's the plan if you loose and end up having to try to survive on $15 a day (for $24 a day, you'd have to work 24 hours a day...)? Save money to buy a gun?
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  27. #27
    spoonitnow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by daviddem View Post
    What's the plan for your extra $100,000,000 then? (things you haven't yet done with your first $100,000,000)
    What's the plan if you loose and end up having to try to survive on $15 a day (for $24 a day, you'd have to work 24 hours a day...)? Save money to buy a gun?
    ffs stop feeding it
  28. #28
    so I guess someone needs to explain to Newfish that he shouldn't have deathmatched his last 30$ at 0.25/0.50 HU on absolute after stars and full tilt pulled out of WA....
  29. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Bbickes View Post
    lol @ the people who think im leveling
    you're a risk lover; most people are risk-averse. there really isn't anything wrong with wanting to accept that first die roll.
  30. #30
    I'm too busto to have 100,000,000 in the first place. I'd probably degen it all away at 500k/1mill on an all in 4bet bluff with 27o.
    I fold AA preflop.
  31. #31
    sold 100th post
  32. #32
    Thanks for the post spoonitnow. Bankroll management is something that I really need to focus on.
  33. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Bbickes View Post
    lol @ the people who think im leveling
    +1 again
    [00:29] <daven> dc, why not check turn behind
    [00:30] <DC> daven
    [00:30] <DC> on my hand?
    [00:30] <daven> yep
    [00:30] <DC> because I am drunk
    [00:30] <daven> nice reason
    [00:30] <daven> no further questions
    [00:30] <yaawn> ^^Lol

    Problem officer...?
  34. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Penneywize View Post
    so I guess someone needs to explain to Newfish that he shouldn't have deathmatched his last 30$ at 0.25/0.50 HU on absolute after stars and full tilt pulled out of WA....
    it was 25nl and rigged imo and lol yer such a bitch if u thought that was deathmatching
  35. #35
    Nice article spoon.
    Good read.

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