String's adventures in 3betting(it's hard)

[Silly String]

My image is TAG with the emphasis on AGG. I have 3bet and raised multiple pots lately. Villain is 16/46/1.5 and I have not been in a pot with him yet. He is somewhat passive postflop, but not terrible. Probably just playing his own cards.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (4 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

Button ($25.25)
SB ($24.05)
Hero ($54.35)
UTG ($21.65)

Preflop: Hero is BB with J, J.
1 fold, Button raises to $1, 1 fold, Hero raises to $3, Button calls $2.

Flop: ($6.10) 6, 9, Q (2 players)
Hero bets $4.5, Button calls $4.50.

Turn: ($15.10) 3 (2 players)
Hero checks, Button checks.

River: ($15.10) 9 (2 players)
River line??

EDIT: NEW TITLE

[bigspenda73]

I default to c/c here

I feel as it gets most value out of our hand if we let him lead a missed draw unless we feel he is going to look us up light with a small pp.

[Numbr2intheWorld]

easy c/f. He's not betting any worse and only bluffing JT.

[bode]

i think c/c is better than c/f given the turn. also 3-bet to 3.5 or 4x OOP like this.

[IowaSkinsFan]

c/f any reasonable bet but expect it to go check check.

[Silly String]

Point taken on the OOP 3bet amount.
Any value in a blocking bet?
His flop call and turn check behind got me thinking TT or 77-88.

[jyms]

I C/C any reasonable bet here

[sauce123]

how about bet/fold?

[Silly String]

Villain pushed. Now what?
I timed down before making my decision. His line was just so weird. I always equate weird with bluffy.

[bigspenda73]

OMG I really wanna call a shove

[gabe]

how about bet/fold?

yea wtf why is everyone all about checking

[bode]

i fold to a shove. 77/88/TT are likely, but a Q is just as likely here IMO w/ a villain that loose. I think his range contains JQ/KQ w/ a 46% VPIP.

[silu73]

I find it hard not to bet the river when the turn was checked behind. I like a smallish bet here but would fold to a raise.

[sauce123]

i would size my betting on the flop so u can shove the river as a slightly less than PSB

[bigspenda73]

how about bet/fold?

yea wtf why is everyone all about checking

explain betting please

[IowaSkinsFan]

There's so little value in betting but i guess it makes our decision a lot easier.

If the river isnt a 9,A,K I bet river.

[kmind]

If the river isnt a 9,A,K I bet river.

My thinking, too. With the 9 as the river, why is this bet/fold?

[Harry]

The 9 on the river makes me dislike bet/fold.

[zook]

I don't see the point of betting here. Hard to think of many hands we beat that call a bet, maaaybe TT/88. C/f prob, maybe call a smallish bet... the shove is a 9 or a missed draw and I don't pay to find out.

[zook]

Duh, I see the point of betting, to stop a bluff. But for that to be +ev 87/T9 need to make up more of his range than Q's and 9's AND he needs to bluff those hands a fair amount. I don't think either of those is true, esp since this guy is passive post-flop.

[IowaSkinsFan]

If the point of betting is to stop a bluff i dont get it.

[Harry]

Blocking bet is actually decent because I think he has TT a lot here. 88 too.

[zook]

I don't get the last two posts.

ISF: You wouldn't bet for value here would you? How much of his range is calling that we beat? I don't like betting, but vs. a more aggro opp I could see betting to stop a bluff.

Harry: If you think he has TT and 88 a lot here you should value bet not block. I think his range is more heavily weighted to Q's, 9's and busted draws.

[gabe]

betting for value against tt 88 77 etc a6 whatever. villian is 16/46 and i dont know wtf that means, so i just assume its a unknown who i always bet fold/against

also id probably just shove turn before i got to river, people call with anything so much (this goes for every limit)

[mcatdog]

Harry: If you think he has TT and 88 a lot here you should value bet not block.

Blocking bets ARE value bets, aren't they? I wouldn't make a blocking bet here if I thought I was beat.

[gabe]

yea its the same thing

[zook]

Blocking bets are a type of value bet, but they're distinct b/c they're smaller and are designed to preempt bluffs. I wouldn't block bet here if I thought I was beat, only if I thought missed draws made up a decent portion of opp's range and he's capable of bluffing.

I think betting for value here is super thin.

[gabe]

no doubt its thin, i think we need clarification on 'Villain is 16/46/1.5'

was that a typo or are they just flipped

again, i like pushing turn

[bode]

i think it should be 46/16/1.5.

[bigspenda73]

betting for value against tt 88 77 etc a6 whatever. villian is 16/46 and i dont know wtf that means, so i just assume its a unknown who i always bet fold/against

also id probably just shove turn before i got to river, people call with anything so much (this goes for every limit)

so like $6?

[Da GOAT]

id assume c/f is good here since opp is passive and likely to only bet hands that beat you.

as for betting i dont know if we can expect opp to call/fold enough to make it +EV

BTW im taking this stake into account alot

[Silly String]

Thank you all for the discussion. I am glad this spot was as tought as I thought. I was worried that I was fretting over and easy decision.
As for the percentages, they were just flipped. I meant 46/16/1.5. Don't put too much emphasis on the AF as I haven't seen many hand for this villain yet.

bigspenda, funny you say that. I did block bet $6 here and then the villain pushed over. I obviously convinced myself that he could bluff that since my block bet was so transparent, so I called.
Anyone care to hazard a guess what the villain had? And whether or not I spewed or caught him with his pants down?

[bigspenda73]

I said I would call a shove earlier BUT not after I bet.

I would call a shove against the right opponent if I checked.

[crazycrazy]

bet small to get value of TT/88 and block a bluff and fold to raise

or check/fold ur only getin called by weak Q's here anyway...

[Silly String]

Villain held KQ in the OP.

Alright, new hands. I am 3betting more and need the help. Comments on all streets welcome.

Villain is 28/19/1.8 over 50 hands. He hasn't been out of line yet. My image is TAG. If he pays attn, I have only 3bet once at this table.
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

CO ($28.30)
Button ($44.40)
Hero ($24.75)
BB ($9.95)
UTG ($14.55)
MP ($24.40)

Preflop: Hero is SB with T, T.
UTG calls $0.25, 2 folds, Button raises to $1, Hero raises to $3.75, 1 fold, UTG folds, Button calls $2.75.

Flop: ($8) K, A, Q (2 players)
Hero bets $5, Button calls $5.

Turn: ($18) J (2 players)
Hero bets $8.25, Button raises to $20.75, Hero calls $7.75 (All-In).

River: ($50) 9 (2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: $50

Results below:
Hero has Tc Ts (straight, ace high).
Button has Jd Qs (two pair, queens and jacks).
Outcome: Hero wins $50. Button wins $4.75.



My image is TAG and I have only 3bet 1 or 2 pots in 100 hands or so. I have not 3bet the villain yet. Although he did 3bet me quite a few orbits ago and I folded KQo OTB. Villain is 25/17/1.5 over 100 hands. I consider him a solid player. The table just started falling apart and we have only been 3 handed for a couple hands.
I took this line b/c I liked what Massimo or ISF said awhile ago about the PFRer checking the flop in a 3bet pot is an enormous sign of strength. I wanted the bet to look like a missed CR. I have been getting floated a lot lately in 3bet pots when I'm OOP, so I thought I'd take this line and see. What do you think?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (3 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

Hero ($24.75)
BB ($24.40)
Button ($31)

Preflop: Hero is SB with A, K. Hero posts a blind of $0.25.
BB raises to $1, 2 folds, Hero (poster) raises to $4, BB calls $3.
Flop($8): Q T 4
Hero checks, BB checks.
Turn($8): 3
Hero bets $4.5 BB folds.

Final Pot: $8

EDIT: 2ND HH FIXED

[bode]

first hand is fine. Im almost always c-betting on that board, although i dont know if thats good or not.

second hand got messed up in the conversion process.

[Silly String]

also 3-bet to 3.5 or 4x OOP like this.

BTW Bode, great tip ^^. I have started doing this and it seems to be working.

[Silly String]

New title bump. New hands above. ^^^^

[bode]

also 3-bet to 3.5 or 4x OOP like this.

BTW Bode, great tip ^^. I have started doing this and it seems to be working.

dont thank me, im just the messenger. I picked this up through random HH's posted around here, and Sauce advocates it in his post UIGEA guide. Ive been 3-betting to 3.5x regardless of position recently. 4x just bloats the pot more than i want it OOP.

[bode]

2nd HH still isnt fixed btw.

[Silly String]

The 2nd HH shows all the action, but I didn't bother with the amounts. I figured everyone could surmise the $8 pot on flop. The converter won't get it right so I kinda shorthanded it.

[IowaSkinsFan]

zook: I'm pretty sure the word blocking bet should never be used in the way its normally used. If you bet to stop a bluff, than you might as well c/c because you feel he's bluffing enough where a call would be easy.... yes there are some rare situations where u'd rather stop a bluff than have him make it, but most of the time that's not the case. Block bets are just vbets.

[Silly String]

ISF of Bode, Is the 2nd HH above played OK. I gave the reasoning for the turn bet above. What do you think about the line guys?

[zook]

ISF: I pretty much agree. Blocking bets are just value bets made a little smaller so that you don't pot commit yourself to a raise. Theoretically they're supposed to save you money if villain would value bet a hand that beats you for more than what you're betting, but wouldn't raise with that hand. And they're supposed to stop a bluff that would look like that value bet. Personally I think they're pretty useless.

Silly String: There are no board cards in the 2nd hh above...

[bode]

ISF of Bode, Is the 2nd HH above played OK. I gave the reasoning for the turn bet above. What do you think about the line guys?

it only shows your hole cards and not the flop and turn.

[Silly String]

Sorry guys, the converter really boned that hand and I didn't even notice the flop/turn cards were missing. There is the rest of the hand. Comments. Thanks.

[euphoricism]

Sorry guys, the converter really boned that hand and I didn't even notice the flop/turn cards were missing. There is the rest of the hand. Comments. Thanks.

There are precious few times i think its a good idea to 3bet and then check the flop. The few that do, often involve "OMG I FLOPPED THE NUTS HAHAHAHA"

This is not one. Bet the flop. You seem to be playing scared. Drop down a stake and get the feel for it?

[Silly String]

You seem to be playing scared. Drop down a stake and get the feel for it?

I appreciate the comment Euph, but Um . . . no. I'm not playing scared. I am so overrolled for 25NL it is not even funny. The line was played that way by design if you read the pre-hand information.
Based on Max & ISF's previous comments, I was trying to 2nd level the solid TAG for thinking exactly this:

There are precious few times i think its a good idea to 3bet and then check the flop. The few that do, often involve "OMG I FLOPPED THE NUTS HAHAHAHA" This is not one. Bet the flop.

Dry board, missed CR and small value bet on dry turn card.
If you don't like the play that is fine, but you comments made it sound like you didn't understand the line. It definitely wasn't fear of c-betting a 3bet flop. P.S. I usually bet 2/3rds c-bet into 3bet flop, but I wanted this to look like I wanted a call. Maybe that was a little fancy.

[Silly String]

OK, new hand:

Villain was 43/20/0.8 over 50 hands. I 3bet him because he was raising 20% of his hands and I'm well ahead of his range. I figured I can play this passive to hit an A or Q if he calls since he's passive and I'm in position. Is this bad to an UTG raiser? Suggestions?
P.S. I have seen him play a hand poorly and call down with 3rd pair on river.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver Cards)

SB ($6.95)
BB ($15)
UTG ($39)
MP ($25.70)
Hero ($29.45)
Button ($27.50)

Preflop: Hero is CO with , .
UTG raises to $1, 1 fold, Hero raises to $3.5, 3 folds, UTG calls $2.50.

Flop: ($7.35) , , (2 players)
UTG checks, Hero checks.

Turn: ($7.35) (2 players)
UTG bets $2, Hero calls $2.

River: ($11.35) (2 players)
UTG checks, Hero checks.

Final Pot: $11.35

[martindcx1e]

also id probably just shove turn before i got to river, people call with anything so much (this goes for every limit)

explain plz? why didn't this spark some discussion yet? shoving is the last thing in my mind on the turn.

[Numbr2intheWorld]

newest hand was played fine, it's a decent flop to cont bet though.

[Silly String]

Thanks Max. I didn't really think it was very interesting, but I am trying to post lots of 3bet pots in this thread to improve my 3betting.
I wondered about my decision to start playing more passively if I whiff completely in these situations vs. passive opponents. My default play used to be fire 2/3rd c/bet on flop each time and that was getting called down by some redonkulous stuff, so I am picking my spots better, especially against a potential calling station. I am betting everytime I hit the flop.

[Silly String]

Villain has been tight(17/15/3), but aggressive. Typical TAG if nothing else. Later I have found him to be very aggressive despite playing 4-8 tables. He looks to be 3 betting light(at least to AK if not AQ, and more PPs than just TT+). I haven't seen him show down a hand were he called a 3bet yet. I almost called the river putting him on a small pocket pair, but I beat so little in his range. What do you think, fire flop here? He seems capable of a float with small PP or AK, or even a raise if he thinks I missed.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

Hero ($52.55)
BB ($25)
UTG ($50.80)
MP ($51.20)
CO ($92.80)
Button ($33.75)

Preflop: Hero is SB with T, T.
UTG raises to $2, 3 folds, Hero raises to $7.5, 1 fold, UTG calls $5.50.

Flop: ($15.50) Q, 5, J (2 players)
Hero checks, UTG checks.

Turn: ($15.50) A (2 players)
Hero checks, UTG checks.

River: ($15.50) Q (2 players)
Hero checks, UTG bets $10, Hero folds.

Final Pot: $15.50

[zook]

1. You don't have to 3bet here. It isn't terrible, but you're not folding any better hands and vs. an utg raiser you can definitely play for set + c/r steal value. Plus the BB might come along if you just call.

2. If you 3bet, you should fire at this flop. Don't assume that he can float in a 3bet pot unless you've seen him do it.

3. After checking the flop, I think the hand is fine as played. The ace is a good card to fire on, but this board had to hit him somehow since I can't imagine a tag is calling a 3bet with 22-99 here.

[IowaSkinsFan]

1. If you feel like his calling range is tight (AQ+, TT+) than not threebetting can be a very good decision.
2. I want to call the river because the only hand that makes 100% sense is KQ but he'd have to be turning real shit into a bluff (if he's calling a lot of threebets u may have to call here).
3. zook, i dont necessarily agree we should fire at this flop. If we feel like opp is going to attempt to take away the pot with worse hands (and this is only assuming he's calling threebets with low sc's or some crap like AT), then i'd fire.

[zook]

Yeah, you're right that it isn't a good flop to cbet. Hard to think of any hands we're behind that he's folding here, besides AJ. C-betting keeps him from bluffing us off the best hand, but I don't think we need to worry about that too much at 50nl.

[Galapogos]

I don't 3-bet UTG raisers with TT from the blinds.

[Silly String]

Thanks for the discussion guys, especially you Zook for stimulating it. I glad to see this isn't one of those mandatory cbet situations, as I wasn't sure. I didn't want to c-bet b/c I felt I am beat by any caller and even AK might call/float here. Then the turn was a shitty card, and I hoped to check it down. The deciding factor in my river fold was he bet size looked like it wanted a call. I am guessing he held Ax or a small PP.
You guys are right, this wasn't the best place to 3bet somebody, especially OOP(although I still think I beat over 1/2 his UTG raising range). I should have called and played some pokah.

[Silly String]

I have only been at the table for a little while, and villain is 32/23 over 35 hands or so. I think he is a reg, but I don't know how good. No notes yet. My image is TAG, and I haven't 3bet/4bet at this table yet.
Pretty sure this is terrible, but I just need to check. It felt a lot like a squeeze, but any calling hand has me dominated or flipping at best. My UTG range is narrow anyway right. I can't really 4bet and fold, so I figure just push for maximum fold equity. Probably need to just call here, right? If I'm the 3bettor, I like a calling a push better than a 4bet push here. Can I really fold AK here?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

Button ($50.75)
SB ($100.30)
BB ($49.70)
Hero ($48.75)
MP ($42.40)
CO ($53.60)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with K, A.
Hero raises to $2, MP calls $2, 2 folds, SB raises to $10, 1 fold, Hero raises to $48.75, MP folds, SB calls $38.75.

Flop: ($100) 3, 2, J (2 players)

Turn: ($100) 9 (2 players)

River: ($100) J (2 players)

Final Pot: $100

[IowaSkinsFan]

fine.

[Silly String]

Thx for the quick response. Huh, I guess I'm happy about that.
Villain woke up with AA and it got me thinking about what hands call here. Risking $46 to win $14, especially when I don't have a read on opponents 3bet tendencies seemed a little loose. Of course the ranges fit the play though.

[Silly String]

I am progressing at 3betting fairly well, but here is one that I couldn't figure out the right river action:

Villain is very new to table but is 23/15ish. He has not shown down nor 3bet or called 3bet.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (6 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

CO ($106.80)
Button ($105.35)
SB ($133.65)
BB ($94.70)
UTG ($97)
Hero ($123.50)

Preflop: Hero is MP with K, A.
UTG raises to $3, Hero raises to $12, 3 folds, UTG calls $9.

Flop: ($25.50) K, 4, T (3 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets $16, UTG calls $16.

Turn: ($57.50) J (3 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets $32, UTG calls $32.

River: ($121.50) 5 (3 players)
UTG checks, Hero checks.

Final Pot: $121.50

I couldn't put him on anything that I beat that calls a river bet but KQ. I don't know if he'd trap w/ a set and let me spew my stack off or if he'd raise. Is this a river push or check behind?

[Silly String]

What do you all think about this range: TT+, AQs+, KQs, AKo, KJo+
I threw AQs in there to rep the few times he might have AQ and floated my flop bet. Is this too generous, too tight?

[sunfunbunch]

What do you all think about this range: TT+, AQs+, KQs, AKo, KJo+
I threw AQs in there to rep the few times he might have AQ and floated my flop bet. Is this too generous, too tight?

Have not played in a while, but I do not think that range is too tight given villain's stats and the fact that this is a 3 bet pot.

the turn card was ooogly.

giving opponent that range, I am not so sure I bet the turn...?

villain's line confuses me because of his stack size.. has about 37 left?

how about checking turn?
if betting, maybe push the turn?

[Vi-Zer0Skill]

A-Q shouldn't be in OPP's range. He is going to be a station with Q-Q and K-Q often enough that shoving is marginal at worst. He may also fold A-K some of the time.

Also, by shoving the river you widen your range without losing much equity.

[Silly String]

Here’s a hand w/ a light 3 bettor that you may find interesting. He had 3bet once before and I folded AQ. He also squeezed another couple opponents at the table in about 40 hands or so. What do you all think, & how would you play it different?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (5 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

Hero ($112.55)
SB ($179.90)
BB ($104.55)
UTG ($102.35)
MP ($49.70)

Preflop: Hero is Button with J, J.
2 folds, Hero raises to $4, SB raises to $14, 1 fold, Hero calls $10.

Flop: ($29) 4, 3, Q (2 players)
SB bets $15, Hero calls $15.

Turn: ($59) 6 (2 players)
SB checks, Hero checks.

River: ($59) 7 (2 players)
SB bets $20, Hero calls $20.

Final Pot: $99

[Silly String]

My image is TAG, but aggressive. I have 3bet MP 2x in the last 30 hands or so and squeezed MP & CO one of those times. I'm sure they think I'm 3betting light & therefore their range might be wider. I was sure hoping for a 4bet to make this easier.
MP is Tight 14/14 over 50 hands & stacked off PF KKvsAT(got sucked out on). CO is a 25/10 type with no show downs over 20ish hands.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (6 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

UTG ($104.55)
MP ($117.50)
CO ($45)
Hero ($120.55)
SB ($103.40)
BB ($25.75)

Preflop: Hero is Button with K, K.
1 fold, MP raises to $4, CO calls $4, Hero raises to $15, 2 folds, MP calls $11, CO calls $11.

Flop: ($46.50) Q, 7, A (3 players)
MP checks, CO checks, Hero checks.

Turn: ($46.50) 9 (3 players)
MP checks, CO checks, Hero checks.

River: ($46.50) 2 (3 players)
MP checks, CO checks, [color=#CC3333]Hero bets $25

Final Pot: $46.50

I don't think think they'd check 2 streets w/ a real hand so I seriously thought about betting the turn, but figure Ax may check it down for value from JJ, KK, or a bluff.
I bet the river for 2 reasons: 1) I didn't want them to see my strong holding since they must have developed a serious suspicion about my 3betting. 2) b/c they checked 3 streets and I saw value from a suspicious 88, TT, KQ type hand. How'd I do?

[IowaSkinsFan]

Hand 1: I definetely check behind turn. But as played I probably bet river because your ahead so much.

Hand 2: I'm thinking shove the river.

Hand 3: Looks fine

[bode]

id probly find myself betting the turn on the last hand but i like the way you played it alot. 88/TT/JJ are looking you up here often enough.

[Silly String]

Here's another hand. Villain is TAG, but I can't be sure he 3bets light yet. I have only seen 30ish hands of 11/25 poker and haven't seen him 3bet yet.
I feel dirty folding this as I am only worried about a couple hands, most of which are unlikely. The sets, the AK diamonds. I don't know if he would slow play AA or KK here. What do you think? Should I check turn?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (6 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

BB ($104.70)
Hero ($98)
MP ($107.95)
CO ($91.65)
Button ($102.45)
SB ($126)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with 9, 9.
Hero raises to $4, MP raises to $12, 4 folds, Hero calls $8.

Flop: ($25.50) 2, 4, Q (2 players)
Hero checks, MP checks.

Turn: ($25.50) 3 (2 players)
Hero bets $16, MP raises to $32, Hero folds.

Final Pot: $57.50

[asdpikas]

i would fold 99 oop to the 3-bet, no good implied odds to set hunt

is that too weak?

[meeloche]

i would fold 99 oop to the 3-bet, no good implied odds to set hunt

is that too weak?

Not at all. Unless opp is 3 betting very light and you've seen him showdown light in a 3 bet pot you should only call for set value. Most of the time i fold 99 to a 3 bet anyway.

[Silly String]

Thanks for the comments guys. I will sometimes fold 99 OOP too, especially to a light 3better who is good. Although here I had set odds and I couldn't be sure about the 3 bettor due to limited read in HH. I feel confident my play up till the turn isn't -EV and if so, not by much. Does anybody play the turn different after the villain checks the flop here?

[asdpikas]

he could be holding AK w the Ad...? guess it's hard to tell without reads (would he be capable of semibluffing there?)
I guess a set is more probable (like QQ) than AdKd.
AdKd would c-bet that flop

for me, c/f the turn, i guess, there aren't many hands u can beat (AKoff or a total bluff, and if he has the Ad or Kd he has 14outs), and once i didn't flop a set and there is a possible flush i don't really see why keep going...


If he checks behind on turn, then it's a different story