plan for flop?

[Chopper]

i want to know how to play the flop the best. i feel that i cant count on these passives to do any betting behind me, but do i really want that?

if i check, planning to raise...but everyone calls around, then i am kind of screwed. i thought about waiting for the turn to bet, and think that may have been best. i have a weak kicker and dont want A9 to call my flop lead. i have only a bd draw. but, i have TP and no overcards can beat my one pair hand. however, i hate giving free cards on any board in passive games, too.

if i check the flop, it checks around, and an early player leads the turn, do i raise? i think i have to there.

or, did i just play it fine for the situation?

what is the best plan? opinions DEMANDED! lol.

0.25/0.5 Limit Holdem
9 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
Hero (UTG) ($21.35)
UTG+1 ($7.70)
MP1 ($7.20)
MP2 ($23.45)
MP3 ($11.05)
CO ($10.25)
BTN ($9.90)
SB ($13.75)
BB ($7.45)

Pre-flop: (1.4 SB, 9 players) Hero is UTG
Hero calls, UTG+1 calls, 1 fold, MP2 calls, 1 fold, CO calls, 1 fold, SB calls, BB checks

Flop: (6.0 SB, 6 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets, 1 fold, MP2 calls, CO calls, SB folds, BB folds

Turn: (4.5 BB, 3 players)
Hero bets, MP2 calls, CO calls

River: (7.5 BB, 3 players)
Hero bets

[Chopper]

and, if anyone cares to really dive in deep, i would like to learn how to calculate the math for some of these decisions. i would like to see if leading out on the flop or waiting for the turn to lead is the more profitable play....and by how much.

my guess is that they are fairly close, and probably not worth worrying too much about...at this level, as there are larger "edges" to be had elsewhere for sure.

[Lance]

my line:
check the flop.....if some1 bets except the button i fold (we assume that button bets with anything).
If button bets i would c/c turn and call down when i dont see any aggression from any1 else.
If nobody bets on the flop i lead the turn...no matter turn card

In chopper's line i am often beaten by A7+ with investing too much money.


I just hate kicker problems.........

[Chopper]

my line:
check the flop.....if some1 bets except the button i fold (we assume that button bets with anything).
If button bets i would c/c turn and call down when i dont see any aggression from any1 else.
If nobody bets on the flop i lead the turn...no matter turn card

In chopper's line i am often beaten by A7+ with investing too much money.


I just hate kicker problems.........

this is what i worry about. if i check, someone bets their 99 and all of a sudden, i think i am outkicked. i need a bet and a caller before i even think about bailing this early with TP. but, i would like to know if 2pr or TPbetterK is out there. problem is, they wont necessarily raise my lead.

[Lance]

this is what i worry about. if i check, someone bets their 99 and all of a sudden, i think i am outkicked. i need a bet and a caller before i even think about bailing this early with TP. but, i would like to know if 2pr or TPbetterK is out there. problem is, they wont necessarily raise my lead.

U decided to play A4s UTG coz u know that u play against loose passive players and i dont assume that a passive player bets with 99 on ace board.

imho A4s UTG is too loose

[asdpikas]

fold PF

Postflop, i would just lead every street. If i get raised at any point, i'm probably done with the hand.

leading is much better than playing passive against LPs because they tend to call down light and wont raise you as a bluff/semibluff/free card play... Thus you wont be folding the best hand often, and u'll get full value when ahead, charging any draws, while losing about the same if outkicked. That's a good trade

[KoRnholio]

PF is fine in a loose passive game like that. I check that pretty dry flop almost always. Then when you lead the turn you get all sorts of spite "he doesn't have an ace, he didn't bet the flop!" calls.

[Chopper]

U decided to play A4s UTG coz u know that u play against loose passive players and i dont assume that a passive player bets with 99 on ace board.

imho A4s UTG is too loose

not to pick on you, but AXs from ep is straight out of Miller/Sklansky. its ideal for big pots with big draws in passive games that take 4+ players to flops w/o a lot of preflop raising. thats why i played it.

however, it gets caught in a tough spot when it flops the damned A and hangs your ass out there oop in a multiway pot with hardly a backdoor redraw to stand on. thats where post flop skill becomes your guide.

you are basically limping this thing in hopes of getting into the flop with one bet, hopefully two, and hitting a four flush on the flop in a decent pot worth chasing down.....as long as it stays one bet at a time. and, enough of those exact situations arise in these games to make A4s a rather profitable hand....not to mention the distraction it causes anyone at the table with two brain cells bouncing around in their head.

asd....lol....you play too high for this stinkshit of a hand, so i'd expect nothing less from you. if i play 1/2+, i dont think this is in my range very often anymore, either.

korn...i agree with the "he dont have the A, he'd have bet the flop" line of thinking, but can we take that chance with this many people taking the flop? or, do we need to get to protecting the best way we can...since our 4 sucks donkey balls?

[Ragnar4]

however, it gets caught in a tough spot when it flops the damned A and hangs your ass out there oop in a multiway pot with hardly a backdoor redraw to stand on. thats where post flop skill becomes your guide.

I also believe that sklansky/miller are very vociferous when they argue that you shouldn't bet this board, but instead wait till the turn to bet the board, and be *very* willing to lay down without proper odds to draw and position.

[Sheetah]

Fold PF, even in loose passive game ... although it's close.
As played:
- I bet the flop cause there are some straight draws and I don't expect that loose passive is ever folding a pair here
- turn is close between betting and checking for deception purposes - anyone who paired a ten will feel pretty confident betting
- I bet river for value cause I don't expect pair of queens to ever fold here (and possibly tens)

during the process ^^^ I'm praying hard

[bigspenda73]

river bet seems optimistic I might c/f but prolly c/c

[Chopper]

however, it gets caught in a tough spot when it flops the damned A and hangs your ass out there oop in a multiway pot with hardly a backdoor redraw to stand on. thats where post flop skill becomes your guide.

I also believe that sklansky/miller are very vociferous when they argue that you shouldn't bet this board, but instead wait till the turn to bet the board, and be *very* willing to lay down without proper odds to draw and position.

agreed 100%. and, that is why i got my ass hung out there. and, why i posted the hand. i'm glad you pointed it out.

[Chopper]

river bet seems optimistic I might c/f but prolly c/c

in what circumstances would you c/f? i am curious because i cant come up with one, unless i am facing two cold. oh spenda, you surprise me so with your constant search for thinner and thinner value. isnt your mantra, "bet your ass of until you get raised back w/ TP? (at micros)"

sheetah, why are we concerned with "deception?" we are in a game where 88 is calling down and K6, etc. i dont think we should pin a T on someone and check there, should we? isnt the calling range of a villain so wide we should be concerned more with value than a specific hand holding? therefore, shouldnt we be thinking "value," but fearing the A5+ hands?

sorry to play "devils advocate," guys. i am really just trying to keep the discussion going and get a bit deeper into why we would do what we do with our lines.

i just felt the passive as hell play of villains at this level, and table in particular, would lead to a bet-bet-bet line and only slow down if raised. the reason i asked about waiting for the turn was specifically because of ragnar's point from miller's book.

[bigspenda73]

I mean I'm probably c/c'ing one, never 2, and might not overcall if it goes bet/call/back to me.

River is just really thin as they're going to have a lot of straight draws and such that aren't looking you up and you're going to value town yourself a lot. Turn bet is obv. fine.

[Chopper]

I mean I'm probably c/c'ing one, never 2, and might not overcall if it goes bet/call/back to me.

River is just really thin as they're going to have a lot of straight draws and such that aren't looking you up and you're going to value town yourself a lot. Turn bet is obv. fine.

so, that wins the "stupidly thin value contest." thanks for a little explanation. so, on the 13th, just fold when i bet....since it wont be that 'thin' again...lol.

hey, if turn bet is standard, to you, then, i can only assume you are leading this flop, too?

[Ragnar4]

I think that turn bet is standard only because he made it to the turn when everyone checked behind.

[bigspenda73]

who said I checked the flop

turn is very standard once they each just flat flop

[Chopper]

who said I checked the flop

turn is very standard once they each just flat flop

just curious since that was my original question. i led and led. but, miller/sklansky would probably prefer to check and lead since there are players to act and our kicker is so bad on a rather dryish flop.

i am still not comfortable leading the flop, but i think it's likely the better play, if we play the hand at all. i just dont see checking the flop into 6 others being a good play with TP in a limped pot.