$1- How not to play QQ...

[Im_new]

Since QQ has been getting a bit of attention in other threads, here is my latest QQ incident. How should this be played? Should I get aggressive and re-raise the turn? Do I just check behind on the river as played? I'm really tempted to toss out a half pot sized bet here...

Poker Stars
No Limit Holdem Tournament
Blinds: t10/t20
8 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: t900
UTG+1: t1220
MP1: t1585
MP2: t1545
HERO: t3010
Button: t1470
SB: t1400
BB: t2370

Pre-flop: (8 players) HERO is CO with Q Q
UTG calls t20 (pot was t30), UTG+1 calls t20 (pot was t50), MP1 folds, MP2 calls t20 (pot was t70), HERO raises to t160, Button folds, SB calls t150 (pot was t250), BB folds, UTG calls t140 (pot was t400), 2 folds.

Flop: T A 2 (t540, 3 players)
SB checks, UTG checks, HERO checks.

Turn: J (t540, 3 players)
SB checks, UTG bets t100, HERO calls t100 (pot was t640), SB calls t100 (pot was t740).

River: 6 (t840, 3 players)
SB checks, UTG checks, HERO ???

[Skeeno]

Results:
Final pot: t2490

I'm guessing you raised, UTG shoved by the final pot amount?

As played I check behind - your losing to more than enough hands, KQ any Ace, two pair, set etc.

Pre-flop looks okay to me, however as I was the pre-flop raiser and both villains have checked to me I'd bet the flop around 350 odd, representing the Ace etc. If villains have Ace weak kicker they should be capable of folding here, if they call then I totally shut down unless I hit runner runner or another Queen.

[Keilah]

what he said

[lowtide139]

You've got to bet the flop. You were the preflop raiser. So you have to represent the A helped you. If you get a reraise or a call you know you are behind and need help on the turn and river. Checking gives you no information, and you'll be firing blind for the rest of the hand.

[drmcboy]

Before you bet (or not):

What hands do I beat that will call?

What hands will fold that beat me?

What will I do if I get raised- Will I have to fold a draw that may win the pot (esp in position)?

[Im_new]

oops, i meant to erase the rest of the hand.

drmcboy, I've been using your methodology lately, but I don't have a complete grasp of it yet. I'm having a lot of trouble with river betting/ bet size. Can you tell more about how this works? How many hands must I beat to make a solid river raise? How many hands must have me beaten, thus leading to a check behind?

[Im_new]

Oh, Skeeno, this is a $1 table...they aren't letting go of TPWK EVER lol.

[drmcboy]

How many hands must I beat to make a solid river raise? How many
hands must have me beaten, thus leading to a check behind?

A couple assumptions first:

anything better than TP would have played it different (adding in these hands obv makes betting worse and so we would check more)

We will always fold to a check raise.

we will not be check raise bluffed.



As you say, it's hard to imagine anyone folds Ax here, so we can ignore folding better hands and just worry about value, which makes this simple. We can maybe get called by Jx and RARELY by Tx or something worse. So do they have KJ, QJ, QT, XX more than AK/AQ/A9/A8/Ax? These hands are all equally likely (mathematically) so it's just numbers. Since there are a lot more Ax hands they may have, and since they will often fold Tx and sometimes Jx, I would check.

[Im_new]

cool, that helps. Thanks!

[taipan168]

You've got to bet the flop. You were the preflop raiser. So you have to represent the A helped you. If you get a reraise or a call you know you are behind and need help on the turn and river. Checking gives you no information, and you'll be firing blind for the rest of the hand.

I disagree with this, and this comes back to the whole "bet to see where you're at" argument. If we bet and get called, where are we at exactly? Does opp have KQ for a draw, Ax or a set which has us crushed, or do they think we are c-betting the flop with something like JJ or 99? We basically have no idea whether we are ahead or behind here, so why should we bet completely blind? I much prefer checking behind, we can then see a turn card and another street of action and decide from there.

I also agree that at a $1 table they are never folding Ax here EVER.

[TLR]

You've got to bet the flop. You were the preflop raiser. So you have to represent the A helped you. If you get a reraise or a call you know you are behind and need help on the turn and river. Checking gives you no information, and you'll be firing blind for the rest of the hand.

I disagree with this, and this comes back to the whole "bet to see where you're at" argument. If we bet and get called, where are we at exactly? Does opp have KQ for a draw, Ax or a set which has us crushed, or do they think we are c-betting the flop with something like JJ or 99? We basically have no idea whether we are ahead or behind here, so why should we bet completely blind? I much prefer checking behind, we can then see a turn card and another street of action and decide from there.

I also agree that at a $1 table they are never folding Ax here EVER.

I would bet this flop, you want to take this hand on the flop if you can, you dont want to give 2 opponents a chance to improve if they dont have an A but have some piece of this flop or some draw

as played defenitly check behind river

[drmcboy]

I also bet flop fwiw

tai everything you said about betting the flop is also true whatever happens on the turn. If you're check folding, OK, but consider how much better leading flop may be vs calling turn and/or river (giving free cards along the way)

[taipan168]

tai everything you said about betting the flop is also true whatever happens on the turn. If you're check folding, OK, but consider how much better leading flop may be vs calling turn and/or river (giving free cards along the way)

What free cards to beat us are we really afraid of on this board? KQ has a gutshot, Tx and 2x have 5 outs, Ax and sets have us drawing (at best) to two outs. If the board was a bit more drawy I could see betting here to protect our hand. My logic behind checking the turn is to try to get to showdown cheap, and it looks like we got that chance.

That said, if we are going to bet anywhere on this board I would bet the flop rather than the turn.

[drmcboy]

ignore the free card part if you like, read the post again, had nothing to do with free cards which is just a minor benfit of betting. And please don't read the board to me.

clearly betting turn or river is absurd, I'm not sure what that has to do with anything.

[TLR]

tai everything you said about betting the flop is also true whatever happens on the turn. If you're check folding, OK, but consider how much better leading flop may be vs calling turn and/or river (giving free cards along the way)

What free cards to beat us are we really afraid of on this board? KQ has a gutshot, Tx and 2x have 5 outs, Ax and sets have us drawing (at best) to two outs. If the board was a bit more drawy I could see betting here to protect our hand. My logic behind checking the turn is to try to get to showdown cheap, and it looks like we got that chance.

That said, if we are going to bet anywhere on this board I would bet the flop rather than the turn.

You are giving 2 players 2 free cards (unless you have a convincing arguement on why not to bet flop and bet turn), and you forgot that Kx has 3 outs to beat you, and that it without accounting for runner runner cards