Omaha - The Pointless Poker Game

As you might have noticed from the title of this topic, I hate Omaha/Omaha Hi/Lo with a passion.

The way I see this game is that it is 95% luck and 5% skill. I find it ridiculous.

Example. If you are playing Limit Omaha Hi and 2 of your 4 cards are aces, and you raise the pot up and get several callers. If the flop then comes something like K 5 5 you are most PROBABLY up against a set of 5s or possibly quads, or possible even kings over 5s.

That is why I think this game is ridiculous, and that you could just call with any old hand preflop and then you rely on luck, every time.

That's all Omaha is, luck.

Does anyone else agree with this?

[Humphrind]

I do not agree even 1% Omaha is a different beast than holdem. But both require skill and luck.

In Holdem, you can get a very good judge on your hole cards. In Omaha, you can also judge which hands are playable, but not in the same way. 1 pair doesn't mean as much. 2 pair does. 4 to a straight means a lot and if you can pull off either of those while being double suited (2 s & 2 s or whaterver) then all the better.

In holdem you want your good cards to stay good or get better. In Omaha isn't the same game, you want to play good card that have the possibility of getting a whole lot better. Just get your mind into an Omaha game and out of a Holdem game.

[michael1123]

I think Omaha does involve more luck than Holdem, with more hole cards, meaning more draws and cards that weren't even a factor in your preflop decision possibly hitting. But obviously there's still skill in the game.

[fishstick]

omaha is all about what hands you play and getting away from a flop that doesn't fit. and i find it much easier to know where i am relative to the other players.

if i have a2xx in my hand, and the board has a low, i have the nut low hand. it's just a matter of whether it'll get quartered.

if i have the nut straight, and the board pairs and i either get bet into or check raised, i'm very sure my str just got sunk by a boat.

what makes omaha so nice (especially limit) is that most players will chase way beyond what they should.

Fishstick just made the point that is why i hate the game so much.

Some players will just chase and chase hands so they can make absolutely anything.

I disagree with Humphrind about saying that Omaha is no different to Holdem. You can never apply the same tactics used in Limit Holdem to Limit Omaha, you will just get outdrawn so many more times because so many more players will chase hands which makes the chances of an opponent hitting something so much higher.

I just see it as a crazy poker game where ANY hand can and WILL win. No-one can put anyone on a hand because there are so many different hands that player can have, there is little skill and a lot of luck in Omaha (ESPECIALLY in Omaha Hi/Lo).

[fishstick]

Fishstick just made the point that is why i hate the game so much.

Some players will just chase and chase hands so they can make absolutely anything.

as fnord has said many times to a statement like this: CHA-CHING!

this is the great thing about limit omaha8. i was just reviewing hand histories and couldn't believe what people were chasing, and how far they went with the hands.

with 50 - 70% of players seeing each flop, and virtually no preflop raising, i'm in heaven. if people want to chase that flush when i have the nut str - i say go ahead! in the long run it benefits me.

I disagree with Humphrind about saying that Omaha is no different to Holdem. You can never apply the same tactics used in Limit Holdem to Limit Omaha, you will just get outdrawn so many more times because so many more players will chase hands which makes the chances of an opponent hitting something so much higher.

remember your odds! the odds of your nut high hand holding up are better than dumbass hitting his draw. and once again on chasing: CHA-CHING!

I just see it as a crazy poker game where ANY hand can and WILL win. No-one can put anyone on a hand because there are so many different hands that player can have, there is little skill and a lot of luck in Omaha (ESPECIALLY in Omaha Hi/Lo).

this is just not true - i have the nut str and the board has not 3 suited or paired - i have the best hand. i hold A2xx and the board has a low (not counterfieting (sp?) my A2) - i have the nut lo.

i really think that the chasers get punished far worse in omaho hi/lo limit than in holdem limit.

give it a chance - omaha hi/lo limit, gooooooooooooooooood!

I've played a few Mixed Games Tournaments on BugsysClub.

The game changes between Limit Holdem, Limit Omaha Hi/Lo and Limit 7 Card Stud every 10 minutes.

But the more I play Omaha Hi/Lo the more I come to hate it.

You very rarely win pots with 2 pair of 3 of a kind in Omaha, you need a QUALITY (full house and above) hand to be sure of winning a pot.

I find straights and flushes too seceptible (is that spelt right?) to be outdrawn in Omaha, I will even go as far as thinking that if you flop a straight you will win the pot just under 50% of the time.

Of course this could be biased because I seem to get outdrawn in Omaha ridiculously more than anyone else...ever.

[fishstick]

You very rarely win pots with 2 pair of 3 of a kind in Omaha, you need a QUALITY (full house and above) hand to be sure of winning a pot.

3 of a kind is pretty weak in omaha, UNLESS you hold the pair (no pair on the board), AND it's top 3 of a kind, AND no reasonable straight possibility, AND no 3 suits on the board.

working with good starting hands and playing the flop well should cut down on getting outdrawn. or, if you do get outdrawn on the hi, you'll at least get the lo split.

working with good starting hands and playing the flop well should cut down on getting outdrawn. or, if you do get outdrawn on the hi, you'll at least get the lo split.

Splitting a Lo is one of the worst things to happen in Omaha, that means you only get a quarter of the pot, which means you will have probably lost money or (if you are lucky) broke even.

[fishstick]

Splitting a Lo is one of the worst things to happen in Omaha, that means you only get a quarter of the pot, which means you will have probably lost money or (if you are lucky) broke even.

correct, but when i say "splitting", i mean splitting the pot (hi and lo to two players). when the lo is divided between two players, that's "quartering" - which, is not ideal.

but once again, with so many chasers (i'm not kidding - 4-5 players typically seeing the river), quartering is at least usually break even. that's why if you are going for the lo, make sure it's the nut lo.

in my reading so far, a common theme with omaha hi/lo limit has been to not raise (only call) if all you have going for yourself is the nut lo hand. if you think about it, this does make sense since all you're doing is paying more rake.

however, if there's 7 players in the pot, and i think i'll get 4-5 callers, i will raise with the nut lo. in ~ 600 hands, i've only seen a lo divided between more than two players one time.

[Humphrind]

I disagree with Humphrind about saying that Omaha is no different to Holdem.

Omaha is a different beast than holdem... Omaha isn't the same game

I'm sorry if my wording was a little vague. To clarify, I think Omaha is very different than holdem.

You very rarely win pots with 2 pair of 3 of a kind in Omaha, you need a QUALITY (full house and above) hand to be sure of winning a pot.

I've said this in another post. I've heard that the average winning hand in holdem is 2 pair. I'd imagine that the average winning hand in Omaha is a straight or flush. You are essentially playing 9 card stud. There are a lot of options with so many cards. You just need to learn which hands you have the most options with.

Again, In Omaha, you want to chose hands that can easily give you a straight, flush, full house, etc. It's still about hand selection, but don't think holdem. A pair is not as strong.

Splitting a Lo is one of the worst things to happen in Omaha, that means you only get a quarter of the pot, which means you will have probably lost money or (if you are lucky) broke even.

Don't play a low hand. If you have :Ac: :Td:, toss it. There are very little options on this hand except the low. The only real reading I have done on Omaha is a few articles on the internet. One of them strongly suggested against playing for half the pot. You will rarely get a profit from this and when you do (3 people in the pot) the money that you will take out will rarely equal the risk you put in by playing a 3 way pot. You will need to be very sure about your hand to get into these situations. In any hi / lo game it will be more difficult to get a +EV. If you and 1 other player and going for the pot, you have the high and he has the low, you will put into the pot exactly what you got out. 0 profit. If you can get the high and split the low you will get some profit and it is advantageous. If there is no low, you are in a good spot to win.

in my reading so far, a common theme with omaha hi/lo limit has been to not raise (only call) if all you have going for yourself is the nut lo hand. if you think about it, this does make sense since all you're doing is paying more rake.

Good point. There are 2 things to think about in this situation. It is smart to be just calling. But also read your opponent. If you sense any weakness, push. You know that at worst you will get back what you put in (minus the rake) but at best you can get him to fold by representing a better hand. Basically, if you sense weakness, you have everything to gain and very little to lose. But watch out for quartering. I HATE that.

[heatman]

All this talk of quartering the pot brings up very good point about the value of a made high hand and some ideas about playing it.

Alot of the chasing in Hi-Lo is done by people with an A234 kind of combination. They're hoping for those other three low cards so they can take half the pot. Sometimes there are a couple of these guys in the pot and you can keep them calling raises all the way. Throw in a strong second best high hand, and you've got the making for a typical Omaha pot.

With a made high hand you have to raise to build the pot with the calls from the low hands. Ideal example, you hold 789T of and the flops makes your straigh with no flush draw (like 78J). Now you've got the nut straight, and only two cards to the low. Great chance to get as much money in the pot as possible. Often you'll get A2 to add a few raises in the hope he gets the low.

Its a no lose situation for you, provided your hand holds up. If a low comes, you split a nice pot. If it doesn't, you scoop a very nice pot.

Its because of the fact that its so profitable to take that high hand that I like the big target straight draws, like the one above, and hands where all of the cards are T or higher.

Also, you've got to be aware of the fact that your low hand players often will help you build the pot with a made low hand. Sometimes you'll mis-read this to think this guy is raising against you, when in reality he's raising with you. If you've got a strong hand, but not the nuts, consider those re-re-raises as potential low hand pot builders, and not competition for your high hand.

[Fnord]

With a made high hand you have to raise to build the pot with the calls from the low hands. Ideal example, you hold 789T of and the flops makes your straigh with no flush draw (like 78J). Now you've got the nut straight, and two cards to the low. Great chance to get as much money in the pot as possible. Often you'll get A2 to add a few raises in the hope he gets the low.

The problem with middle cards like T987 is if you flop your straight either low is out or there is a single card draw to it. In general middle cards in Omaha Hi/Lo are trash.

[heatman]

With a made high hand you have to raise to build the pot with the calls from the low hands. Ideal example, you hold 789T of and the flops makes your straigh with no flush draw (like 78J). Now you've got the nut straight, and two cards to the low. Great chance to get as much money in the pot as possible. Often you'll get A2 to add a few raises in the hope he gets the low.

The problem with middle cards like T987 is if you flop your straight either low is out or there is a single card draw to it. In general middle cards in Omaha Hi/Lo are trash.

Depends on what you are trying to do. You're not going to get many callers if you hold JQKA and the flop comes TQK. The low hands fold out. You need bait.

[fishstick]

Don't play a low hand. If you have :Ac: :Td:, toss it. There are very little options on this hand except the low. The only real reading I have done on Omaha is a few articles on the internet. One of them strongly suggested against playing for half the pot. You will rarely get a profit from this and when you do (3 people in the pot) the money that you will take out will rarely equal the risk you put in by playing a 3 way pot.

you know, this is probably makes sense with good players, but with the number of people seeing the flop, and staying through to the river (at least at the .5/$1 limit game on party poker), if i'm expecting at least 4 callers, i'll see the flop with A2xx (with one of the "x's" being a little card as counterfiet protection). i see so many people chasing lows with 43xx or even 23xx with no ace on the flop, granted you may not make a lot on the hand, but you're still taking out more than you put in. plus, if you hit the miracle flop, you may take the hi hand as well.

what's amazed me a few times: i'll have a hand like AA23 with one of the aces suited to the 2 or 3, hit my nut lo hand with a flush draw, miss my flush draw, and end up scooping the pot with pair of aces as the hi hand. the chasing is just that bad.

I disagree with Humphrind about saying that Omaha is no different to Holdem.

Omaha is a different beast than holdem... Omaha isn't the same game

I'm sorry if my wording was a little vague. To clarify, I think Omaha is very different than holdem.

Sorry, I was a bit too tired to read yesterday!

In that case, I agree with Humphrind about saying that Omaha is different to Holdem. Lol

[michael1123]

I do not agree even 1% Omaha is a different beast than holdem.

It was confusing. I read it the same way you did, Dwarfman. I thought he missed a "that" after 1%, instead of missing a period.

Moving away from all of this Omaha Hi/Lo quartering talk, time to talk about Omaha Hi.

This game is the game that I hate the MOST (the most!) out of the two. That is because it is so difficult to apply a strategy as to which hands to play and which hands not to play.

Example. If you play a hand with two aces in it, you will end up losing to a straight/flush/full house or better (Note I said you WILL end up losing to a better hand).

That is why (and I'm sure you will disagree) I think that any hand is playable in Omaha high because with 4 cards to each player, anything can hit on the flop.

CA-CHING!

I think that there is absolutely no way you can make money from players chasing hands in Omaha Hi. Simply because, so many people do chase hands and probably if you haven't been outdrawn by the river, there will probably be around 3 players still chasing flush draws or straight draws and this could probably mean that more than half the deck are cards that you will lose with.

Possibly I will agree that in the long run you can make money from players chasing hands in Omaha Hi/Lo, but never could you do that in Omaha Hi.

[maxxscam]

i really like omaha hi pot limit, i played a tourney a few nights ago with around 275 players, and was able to come in 20th i beleive very good for my first time, audi also played for first time and came in 30th or so, it was a really fun experience and a nice change, and in pot limit starting hands are everything!

[fishstick]

CA-CHING!

I think that there is absolutely no way you can make money from players chasing hands in Omaha Hi. Simply because, so many people do chase hands and probably if you haven't been outdrawn by the river, there will probably be around 3 players still chasing flush draws or straight draws and this could probably mean that more than half the deck are cards that you will lose with.

on the turn, i have the nut straight with two of a suit out (and no pairs on the board), and 3 players are drawing to a flush. i put out a pot sized bet (ruining their pot-odds).

this is no different than hold em - if you bet to ruin someone's pot odds on their draw, and they continue drawing, they are making a mistake. you are still the favorite to win the hand, and in the "one long poker session", by pushing them to make a mistake, you will profit.

say it with me, dwarfman, omaha goooooooooooood!

[Humphrind]

Well put Fishy.

This is all gold. Are we getting through to you Dwarfman?

[michael1123]

How can you bet to ruin their pot odds at drawing in limit?

Also, dwarfman reminded me of a cool hand Hellmuth wrote an arcticle on a while back, when he mentioned having the nuts on the turn in Omaha, but half the deck may hurt you.

Note, this is truly insane: http://www.cardplayer.com/poker_maga...es/?a_id=13027

A guy has the pure nuts on the turn in Omaha in a 6 way pot, and every remaining card in the deck completes someone else's draw, so he's drawing dead with the nuts!

[fishstick]

How can you bet to ruin their pot odds at drawing in limit?

dwarfman was referring to omaha hi, so i was assuming pot limit...

on the turn, i have the nut straight with two of a suit out (and no pairs on the board), and 3 players are drawing to a flush. i put out a pot sized bet (ruining their pot-odds).

Yes I agree with that. Only thing is, how often will that happen? Not very. I could easily give you another example of how more people draw you out in Omaha than in Holdem, so saying that doesn't really argue a point.

But the way you (fishstick, Humphrind, maxxscam and michael1123) are putting things, you are making Omaha sound like a better game than I first thought.

But I still hate it, I always will hate it, I have given my reasoning for hating it and Omaha will never match up to Holdem. NEVER.

[|~|ypermegachi]

after taking a major hit in my bankroll because of omaha hi, i figure most people would think i hate this game.

well the thing is, you need even more patience with omaha. with holdem generally you should be only playing around 20-30% of your hands. with omaha, it's closer to like 5%.

firstly you need cooperating hands, and usually you can see the flop for a cheap BB call. if you don't have more than 20 outs, throw your hand away.

one time i had the nut flush draw. i went all in during the flop. my spade never came, and 2 people both hit their straights and took all my money away.

the ideal hand after flop you should be looking for is 2 different draws. this would be flush+straight draw. fullhouse+flush draw. fullhouse+straight draw. things like that you should bet and call/reraise bets. if you are only on a single draw, fold. you won't win. if you're lucky enough to get a triple draw or even quad draw that's when you should bet big or go all in.

i think the biggest problem with omaha is because everyone who plays it comes from holdem. good holdem players know patience is important. so they expect that since you have 4 cards now, you don't need as much patience. well it's much to the contrary, you need even MORE patience to win at omaha. it's also a problem for tight-aggressive players, because they are in the mindset that once you play something you should be aggressive. while be a viable strategy in holdem, this will be your downfall in omaha. fold the flop if you have nothing. bluffing does not work in omaha.

i'm still learning omaha myself, so this is all from my own knowledge and my limited internet reading. there aren't many good omaha sites out there (especially hi). so if any of you think i'm wrong, tell me so i can improve my game.

[fishstick]

after taking a major hit in my bankroll because of omaha hi, i figure most people would think i hate this game.

well the thing is, you need even more patience with omaha. with holdem generally you should be only playing around 20-30% of your hands. with omaha, it's closer to like 5%.

firstly you need cooperating hands, and usually you can see the flop for a cheap BB call. if you don't have more than 20 outs, throw your hand away.

one time i had the nut flush draw. i went all in during the flop. my spade never came, and 2 people both hit their straights and took all my money away.

the ideal hand after flop you should be looking for is 2 different draws. this would be flush+straight draw. fullhouse+flush draw. fullhouse+straight draw. things like that you should bet and call/reraise bets. if you are only on a single draw, fold. you won't win. if you're lucky enough to get a triple draw or even quad draw that's when you should bet big or go all in.

i think the biggest problem with omaha is because everyone who plays it comes from holdem. good holdem players know patience is important. so they expect that since you have 4 cards now, you don't need as much patience. well it's much to the contrary, you need even MORE patience to win at omaha. it's also a problem for tight-aggressive players, because they are in the mindset that once you play something you should be aggressive. while be a viable strategy in holdem, this will be your downfall in omaha. fold the flop if you have nothing. bluffing does not work in omaha.

i'm still learning omaha myself, so this is all from my own knowledge and my limited internet reading. there aren't many good omaha sites out there (especially hi). so if any of you think i'm wrong, tell me so i can improve my game.

i don't know if it should be 5%, but you've hit a key point - many people come to omaha because they want to play more hands. hey, if any two cards can win (in holdem), then surely, any 4 cards can definitely win, right? NOT!!! but this mentally will reward the player that waits for and plays good hole cards.

remember, the high portion of omaha is really a game of flushes. that is the most common winning high hand. and with the amount of chasing, if there are 3 to a suit out and someone betting into you, dump your straight.

your right about bluffing, no place for it in low limit omaha.

in terms of drawing on the flop, i would only proceed with 4 to a Q high flush, the nut straight, a big set (although the odds of that set surviving to the river are not good) hoping for a boat.

you might try omaha hi/lo, and play selectively going for the scoops. you want to talk about chasing ---> omaha 8 limit!

[LockLow34]

i don't know if it should be 5%, but you've hit a key point - many people come to omaha because they want to play more hands. hey, if any two cards can win (in holdem), then surely, any 4 cards can definitely win, right? NOT!!! but this mentally will reward the player that waits for and plays good hole cards.

After hitting my live game big on Friday and Saturday, when I got in on Sunday one of the other players lamented "...and you! You fold most of your hands and when you DO play they always hold up!"

Hmmm...ya think?

remember, the high portion of omaha is really a game of flushes. that is the most common winning high hand. and with the amount of chasing, if there are 3 to a suit out and someone betting into you, dump your straight.

Better still, don't even draw to a straight if there's a 2 flush or possible low out there, unless you have some other way of taking the pot (A2, etc).

your right about bluffing, no place for it in low limit omaha.

Agreed. Just remember to make value bets and raises at any opportunity.

in terms of drawing on the flop, i would only proceed with 4 to a Q high flush, the nut straight, a big set (although the odds of that set surviving to the river are not good) hoping for a boat.

you might try omaha hi/lo, and play selectively going for the scoops. you want to talk about chasing ---> omaha 8 limit!

8 or 9 handed last night playing both omaha and texas, managed to have several pots over $200 in a 3/6 game. People LOVE to play it because they get to have cards in their hands, get to throw chips into the middle, and sometimes get their money back. I have to stifle my chuckles at the people who are happy having gotten quartered and managing to barely make their $$ back.

[Cue-Ball 66]

The thing about Omaha is so many people don't understand how to play it. And these people are the ones that make it frustrating for the people that think (and probably do have a fair idea) they do know how to play. Basically when I look at my Omaha starting hands (I have only played Omaha Hi), I want a hand that can improve to be the nuts. So when I get my hand, I look and think, how many ways can this improve to be the nuts.

Are their nut flushes?

Straights? Even if I hit my straight will it be good enough? (Never play a straight on a board that has paired, or has got flush possibilities)

Full houses? Even if I hit my full house, will it be good enough? (That's right, it's quite common to get full house over full house, or even four-of-a-kind over full house.)

Suited cards under 10 are worthless, so if you have them make sure you have other cards that can make your hand (like a 4-card straight for example). Never EVER play on with an overpair. Never play on with a straight draw unless the board is rainbow and the next card is cheap (and even then, it better be the nut straight you're drawing for).

The problem with people in this game is not so much the drawing (which is also a huge problem), but the overestimation of their hand's value. An example the other day was when I flopped the nut straight (7 T J with the 8 9 in my hand) on a rainbow board. Bingo I though, bet, raise, re-raise, re-re-raise, call and I'm all in, and what BETTER hand to be all in on!? Needless to say the guy hits runner-runner clubs and flushes me out. What did he have after the flop? A pair of Kings!!!!! He though his overpair was good enough to go all-in on! I couldn't believe someone could see an overpair, and think it even playable, let alone all-inable!

It's these sorts of occurances that make people like our friend here hate this game so much. But if you are patient, and do wait for hands that can turn into the nuts, I believe this is a very beatable game.

Jesus! This topic is STILL going? I like wrote the first post of this in the summer of 1973!

Anyway, I've watched the 2004 WSOP Omaha Hi/Lo competition, and my opinion has still not changed. Watching it I was thinking 'crikey, he can catch pretty much anything on the flop and win', or 'well he has the nuts on the flop, but he probably won't win'. Its just not normal! Stupid bloody game is Omaha.

[SpectralShift]

Omaha is very much a game of odds - in the sense that it very much isn't about luck, but about making the right (and often complicated) mathematical choice. The game really starts when the flop is revealed... the best hands in the game are only about ~71% to win (AAKK ds) before that. Its important to note that you end up losing more than not when you miss the flop entirely with the big hands... and you lose (~) 7444 vs 13207. Omaha requires you to use the flop... can't afford to have it dead.

It is also a game where hitting the nut hand on the flop can be worse odds than having no hand at all, and/or give very unintuitive results. For example, the hand Cue Ball 66 had (absent of information that he gave), he only had a ~75% chance of winning the hand. That's not really a lock at all. In the some of the worst break-even cases (ie: AKKQ ds), flopping the middle straight on a rainbow board gives him only a 50.44% chance of winning, fully enumerated (with two random cards in his hand other than the 78). There are a lot of 'moderate' calls his opponent could make - he could have KQ, Q9, AKQ, TT, JJ, 77. While underdogs, they range from 30-45% winners, combining them causes him to be a favorite (ie: JJKQ, TT9Q), turning the nut straight into a ~40% winner.

High low is even worse. Its easy to get the clear cut hands and win - often that's good enough at the low limits... but its the edge that needs to be pushed later on. That takes a lot more variance and hard hits. Hi/Low requires far more math and reads to work out odds.

I would say, generally, the problem with this game is that there isn't enough luck involved. What holdem has going for it is being able to put a person on a hand because the possible number of combinations of his cards is low. In omaha, there are just too many possibilities, so it turns into a game of pure math rather than reads. Not really poker to most people.

Most ring games at the pro level involve a massive amount of patience... a order of magnitude more than holdem. Where you may play 10-20% of holdem hands, doing so at the higher stakes (where raises are nearly universal) is near suicide. The lack of patience from the newer players is what feeds the pros money in this game.

[zenbitz]

I just started playing .25/.50 O8 (high/low) on Stars.
Someone mentioned it on IRC, and I remembered an article I read when I first started playing poker for realz.

http://www.playwinningpoker.com/omaha/

It's only a couple pages long, but it can be shortened further:
only play the nuts.

I like O8, because I like games where I can slowly make money without paying much attention (.5/1 LHE on Party, where I have tracking software). I only pay attention when I have a good hand (no bluffing, so no real need to read players)

I tried Pot Limit, because it seemed more lucrative - but the players are a little better, and it really HURTS when your nuts get counterfieted. Lost about 10BB overall, much of it when I got overboated., I only played for a couple hours though.

Since I'm the only one who ever raises preflop - I will raise with A2XX or AAXX, or even KKYY where YY are good cards (like another pair, or 23)

I limp in with like 23 looking for an A, and other coordinated hands (AXsXX or double suited connectors or two pair two suited)

I usually want to to get the nut low, ,and fluke a scoop. Other things to watch for are flops with 2-3 high cards (no lows!) since most of the chasers are low, you can win with trips and such (as long as you watch those draws 3 suited or paired board).

[steelwheel]

as someone once said "Omaha is a game that was invented by a Sadist and is played by Masochists."

Im not the biggest fan of Omaha! I just find it MUCH harder to be able to put my opponent on a hand, because they could have anything with those four cards!

[LockLow34]

as someone once said "Omaha is a game that was invented by a Sadist and is played by Masochists."

Seems to me it was invented by folks who wanted to encourage gamblers to play as many hands as possible, and thus relieve them of their money that much faster.

Im not the biggest fan of Omaha! I just find it MUCH harder to be able to put my opponent on a hand, because they could have anything with those four cards!

Right, but they have the same problem with you. Usually when a person represents a hand, they have that hand.

[Micke]

The way I see this game is that it is 95% luck and 5% skill. I find it ridiculous.

That's all Omaha is, luck.

Does anyone else agree with this?

I think I have to agree with this, when playing on low stakes. There, it doesn't cost that much to chase tha cards, so many players do.

In my opinion:

Omaha on low stakes = Luck.

[rorix]

Low limit omaha8 is ridiculously profitable because there's so much dead money in the pots. Personally I play higher limits O8 but my friend who's building his bankroll plays .25/.5 and .5/1 on stars and makes quite solid profit. It's not because he's lucky, it's just careful starting hand selection. Post flop play in omaha8 is quite easy, so your main edge imo is in starting hand selection. Good hands in omaha are heads and shoulders above crappy hands in multiway pots, much more so that holdem.

Not playing hands like Ac2h5hTd is weak tight to the extreme.

[LeFou]

Just came across this thread

DM, I've never played Omaha, but one should not write off any game. Since this is an old post, I think you've learned that by now. There's a strong case to be made that hold 'em is the worst game one could play nowadays, because so many people are playing it and the competition is much keener than for O8 or 7CS.

You need to know you best/favorite game, but also be able to go where the profit is. And to think flexibly enough that you can succeed at your non-preferred game.

[gabe]

Not playing hands like Ac2h5hTd is weak tight to the extreme.

Are you saying that is a good hand?

[rorix]

Yes.

[|~|ypermegachi]

Not playing hands like Ac2h5hTd is weak tight to the extreme.

Are you saying that is a good hand?

Yes.

this is a horrible hand. what makes you the nut hand? nothing except for all unlikely hands; ie the only nuts you can make is ONE ace high straight, and an unlikely straight flush. everything else does not give you the nuts (i'm not counting flopped quads). you are only hoping for half the pot with this hand, which is easily counterfeited. this hand shouldn't see the flop unless you're a blind.

[rorix]

That is so ridiculous! This hand is heads and shoulders above other hands in a multiway pot. I raise with this hand! Not only do you have a2 with a 5 you're freerolling a baby flush draw and a 3 card straight draw. There's money to be made in only taking half the pot! Badger says that good omaha players break even by splitting and profit by scooping, are you willing to give away your break even money? If you think A25T is a bad hand, I shudder to think where you place the cutoff for good!


Maybe you don't believe me. Here's some stats comparing A25T vs hands that guys were actually showing down in ring games:

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=720738
pokenum -o8 ac 2h 5h td - qs ts 2c 3h - 4c 4h 5c 2d - ks kd 8c 7s - qd jc tc 3d
Omaha Hi/Low 8-or-better: 201376 enumerated boards
cards scoop HIwin HIlos HItie LOwin LOlos LOtie EV
Ac Td 5h 2h 20014 36902 160856 3618 61139 43762 4219 0.290
Qs Ts 2c 3h 1301 1814 186718 12844 37505 46662 612 0.124
5c 4c 2d 4h 9213 33547 164621 3208 19116 90180 4219 0.154
Ks 7s 8c Kd 33281 72666 128635 75 2378 50989 0 0.266
Jc Tc Qd 3d 16608 40631 148137 12608 0 0 0 0.166


This hand has the most EV of them all! And you want to fold it?

[gabe]

all those hands just suck worse.

[|~|ypermegachi]

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=720835
pokenum -o8 ad 2d as 3s - ac td 5h 2h - ah 2s ks 4h - 9s ts jd qd
Omaha Hi/Low 8-or-better: 376992 enumerated boards
cards scoop HIwin HIlos HItie LOwin LOlos LOtie EV
As 3s Ad 2d 40317 105982 261855 9155 26024 7428 173812 0.299
Ks 2s Ah 4h 37994 79665 287101 10226 10830 22622 173812 0.246
Ts 9s Qd Jd 83220 148542 228450 0 0 0 0 0.307
Ac Td 5h 2h 15775 32577 334189 10226 3408 30044 173812 0.147

look ma! i can skew results too!

[rorix]

I just picked the first 4 hands that i saw at the showdown, whereas you've given 3 out of 4 guys in the pot a2, which would be truly unlucky. My hands are actually real!

If someone has those hands performance vs random hands programs they can run it with a25T.

You ask any hi stakes positive expectation omaha 8 player if he'd play a25T and i would honestly be suprised if they didnt play it unless they were in the blinds.


gabe: Sure, most omaha hands suck. But people still play them! These are hands that guys were actually SHOWING DOWN (not all in the same pot of course). There just aren't enough good cards in the deck to think having a25T in a 5 way pot is -EV!

Not playing A25T is so ridiculously weak tight. It's like not playing AQo.

[|~|ypermegachi]

Not playing A25T is so ridiculously weak tight. It's like not playing AQo.

last time i checked the definition of "weak" has nothing to do with how many hands you play but based on how aggressive you are.

AQo is a mucking hand against a raise from someone raising 3% of the time.

i just don't think A25T is any good because you have next to none scooping ability. you are playing for only half the pot. and sure there's probably a ton of dead money in the pot, but you probably wagered 6 or 7 bets to win 8 or 9.

[rorix]

last time i checked the definition of "weak" has nothing to do with how many hands you play but based on how aggressive you are.

In this sense I mean it as more of a mentality, being afraid to even lose a preflop bet.

AQo is a mucking hand against a raise from someone raising 3% of the time.

So? Wow, we fold AQo 3% of the time, therefore a hand with similar strength is obviously horrible. This doesn't make sense at all! If you only fold AQo to a raise 3% of the time, why are you just autofolding a25T outside of the blinds?

i just don't think A25T is any good because you have next to none scooping ability.

A25T can scoop because you're freerollling all these draws because of your a2. That's why a2 is good, not just because it is a solidly profitable holding by itself, but because you're freerolling whatever draws you have so you can suckout the backdoor baby flush or gutshot straight draw or whatever. Freerolling is really profitable.

Anyway, even if you have a 4way pot which is pretty damn common, your lo hits at about 60% down to the river - even if we assume a5 won't win (ignoring 234xx boards) a2 will win low about 44% of the time according to twodimes - so, 44% of the time we get half the pot (ignore quartering [4way pot anyway, just don't bet guys out of the hand] and catching a decent hi hand while freerolling for now, but we know to fold most of the 66% of the time, and we know to go to the river most of the 44% of the time, with a bit of cooperative betting between you and the hi you should be able to get 2 bets on the flop turn and river out of the other 2 guys, which more than offsets the the loss of a preflop raise when the lo doesn't hit -without including our freeroll!

I mean, would you play the hand if it was ace suited? The suited ace doesn't make the difference between raise/fold.

Whatever, I mean, you don't need to play A25T if you don't want to. You can just play AA KK QQ AK if you want. You'll probably still break even given the horrible omaha play online. But I'm going to continue playing and profiting off a2xx.

[|~|ypermegachi]

So? Wow, we fold AQo 3% of the time, therefore a hand with similar strength is obviously horrible. This doesn't make sense at all! If you only fold AQo to a raise 3% of the time, why are you just autofolding a25T outside of the blinds?

huh?

anywho, a suited ace is much stronger for the mere fact you are guranteed the nut holding if the board doesn't pair when you hit.

Anyway, even if you have a 4way pot which is pretty damn common, your lo hits at about 60% down to the river - even if we assume a5 won't win (ignoring 234xx boards) a2 will win low about 44% of the time according to twodimes - so, 44% of the time we get half the pot (ignore quartering [4way pot anyway, just don't bet guys out of the hand] and catching a decent hi hand while freerolling for now, but we know to fold most of the 66% of the time, and we know to go to the river most of the 44% of the time, with a bit of cooperative betting between you and the hi you should be able to get 2 bets on the flop turn and river out of the other 2 guys, which more than offsets the the loss of a preflop raise when the lo doesn't hit -without including our freeroll!

making assumptions does not support your argument. you are overvaluing the freeroll aspect of your hand. heads up, sure you probably have the freeroll flush. in a 5 way pot you cannot possible tell me you actually think your 5 high flush will be good. suited 5 high adds negligible value to your hand.

A52T is playing for half the pot, and there's a good chance you could get quartered.

i always thought of freerolls more like this:
you hold A28Q
they hold 238Q
board is 9TJA

you both have the same Q high straight, you are both guranteed half the pot at this point, unless a king falls on the river, in which case you take the entire pot. everyone else is drawing nearly dead.

i may have overexagerated the crappiness of A2xx, it is a robust hand. but i think it's break even at best, or just barely profitable in the long run if it doesn't have the suited ace. i see it as playing for half the pot, or a quarter. no scooping ability, i don't think is worth playing. but you are free to have your own opinion.

[rorix]

anywho, a suited ace is much stronger for the mere fact you are guranteed the nut holding if the board doesn't pair when you hit.

The odds of hitting the flush and having it hold up mean that just the suited ace doesn't make the difference between a raise and a fold in hand quality.

making assumptions does not support your argument.

What? You're just saying that, it doesn't make sense. The assumptions I made were that our hand was basically just a2 and had no other 2 cards, and showed it was solidly profitable.

you are overvaluing the freeroll aspect of your hand. heads up, sure you probably have the freeroll flush. in a 5 way pot you cannot possible tell me you actually think your 5 high flush will be good. suited 5 high adds negligible value to your hand.

Who knows? We're playing it for free, it doesn't matter!

A52T is playing for half the pot, and there's a good chance you could get quartered.

Not really, quartering doesn't happen as much as people seem to think it does - firstly, if it's a 4way pot then getting 1/4 won't lose you any money. More likely it's 3way on the turn and river where you lose it's not even that much money. If there was a preflop raise/raising on the flop you can even make money while getting 1/4. As long as you're mindful of when it could happen e.g. not reraising with just the nl in a 3way pot you'll be fine.

i always thought of freerolls more like this:

Yeah, that is a freeroll. If we have the nut lo, we're assured of at least getting our money back (if our A/2 doesn't hit on the turn or the river) yet a certain percentage of the time we will runner runner or hit a gutshot for high, to scoop. And we can raise all the way because we're sure of getting our money back.

i may have overexagerated the crappiness of A2xx, it is a robust hand. but i think it's break even at best, or just barely profitable in the long run if it doesn't have the suited ace.

Shrug. Should I go through my hand history to work out my net balance with a2xx over the last 1000 hands?....well, 1000 is too many, how about 200?

i see it as playing for half the pot, or a quarter. no scooping ability, i don't think is worth playing. but you are free to have your own opinion.

You're too concerned with scooping imo.

[|~|ypermegachi]

Shrug. Should I go through my hand history to work out my net balance with a2xx over the last 1000 hands?....well, 1000 is too many, how about 200?

what are you using to keep track of your hands?

[rorix]

Don't know of any programs for Omaha =(.

[rorix]

Hrm, pokerstat claims to do omaha....investigating now

[rorix]

Haven't got too many hands at the moment in the database but...

Starting Card specifier (Card:Rank):
Card 1 : A
Card 2 : 2
Card 3 : A-K
Card 4 : A-K
Suit specifier: ALL, N/A, N/A

Total times dealt: 15 out of 150 hands (10.00%)
Percent of times won money when not folded preflop: 53.33% (8/15)
Average won/lost when dealt: $13.63 (0.76 BB) ($204.50/15)

Average results when not folded preflop:
Win/Loss: $13.63 (0.76 big bets) ($204.50/15)
Win: $43.75 (3.44 big bets) ($350.00/8)
Loss: $20.79 (2.30 big bets) ($145.50/7)
Total win/loss (not folded preflop): +$204.50 (+11.43 big bets)
When not folded preflop:
won money - 53.33%, lost money - 46.67%, even money - 0.00%

Total loss when folded preflop: $0.00 (-0.00 big bets)
Percent of times folded preflop: 0.00% (0/15)

Showdown statistics:
Showed down when not fold preflop: 66.67%, (10/15)

Got high and low hand: 20.00%, (2/10)
Got high hand: 10.00%, (1/10)
Got low hand: 60.00%, (6/10)

Pots scooped: 20.00%, (2/10)
Pots three quarter or better: 0.00%, (0/10)
Pots half or better: 70.00%, (7/10)
Pots quarter or better: 0.00%, (0/10)
Pots won something or better: 0.00%, (0/10)


Hrm pokerstat looks pretty good, a bit complex to use though

[|~|ypermegachi]

rorix, you're probably right that i'm too focused on scooping hands. maybe that's why i think omaha is boring....next time i'll open up and playing more marginally winning hands.

[rorix]

lmk how it works out for you

After reading this post, I tried playing Omaha HiLo for 2 hours or so last week, and I didn't find it as bad as I did before in August, when I made the first post of this topic.

I guess you have shown me that Omaha does have it's perks (Rada especially has shown me this!), thanks for your replies everybody.

[oomike01]

OMG OMAHA is the most F.#kingest greatest bestest awsomest game EVER

[Kingchen]

I am just a beginner of omaha, so i have no idea

[Luke999]

I love PLO, I haven't played high stakes so can't comment on the game as a whole but at low stakes your rarely getting it in pre, its a total postflop game which I love.
I hate preflop pissing wars :P (mainly cuz I never hold ha ha)

[gemkarrie]

Never seen it played, myself.