Seriously thinking of ditching AQo -- your thoughts?

[LeFou]

Got it 32 times in my PT database, net -$27.75, my biggest loser.

Worst are middle position stats. Taking 25-30% of these to showdown from MP. Lots of my big losses have final hand "pair of aces".

I suspect this is because when an A is out there people assume you have it and are not playing with you unless they can beat it.

Ick I think I found it: lots of "folded after turn" entries .. many of these are check-calls when my AQ is overcards-only. Blech; I thought I never did that shit. PT rules.

[Strung]

Ick I think I found it: lots of "folded after turn" entries .. many of these are check-calls when my AQ is overcards-only. Blech; I thought I never did that shit. PT rules.

I don't understand, you are folding on the turn when you haven't improved? Isn't this the way you are supposed to play it?

The way I usually play AQ is this:

I'll usually open it up for a raise in an position. I might limp it if I'm in CO or Button and everyone else has called but against 2 - 4 limpers I'll raise it.

Against a raise, fold it unless I'm button or SB and I'm raised from CO/button. If I want to play in SB I'll probably 3-bet.

Against 2-3 with position unimproved I'll probably bet the flop unimproved or check it depends if I think these guys will fold. I'll fold it to a bet if a K flops. Without position, I'm check/calling to the turn and checking/folding to a bet unimproved. Sometimes I'll fire a bet if I'm HU.

[I_got_the_nuts]

What types of hands are you losing to? Probably alot of straights and flushes I would guess. One problem I find with these types of hands is that you are always gonna raise with this, and you get lots of callers........good so far, but postflop you are pretty much in a horrible position to protect your hand unless one the limpers in front of you gets ballsy and decides to throw out a postflop bet into you, usually though, it will be checked to you, and you really can't protect your hand well on a coordinated board, and with the pot being pretty good size at this point, everyone with a decent draw isn't going anywhere. I don't know if this is what is happening to you, but for me, I commonly have this problem from MP with the Ace high premium hands. Not alot you can do about really, sometimes I check even after I hit TPTK (make them believe the Ace scares me) when I think CO or the button will bet anything, then when it comes back around to you, trap the callers for an extra small bet, make them pay the max for drawing. I've heard people tell me this is a retarted strategy because you risk giving the field a free card, but if you bet they are still gonna call anyways, might as well make them pay double to see the turn. Works for me at least.

[LeFou]

Ick I think I found it: lots of "folded after turn" entries .. many of these are check-calls when my AQ is overcards-only. Blech; I thought I never did that shit. PT rules.

I don't understand, you are folding on the turn when you haven't improved? Isn't this the way you are supposed to play it?

yeah, i mean i shouldn't even be calling the flop unimproved without a really good reason. So that small bet on the flop is hurting my gross income.

Against 2-3 with position unimproved I'll probably bet the flop unimproved or check it depends if I think these guys will fold. I'll fold it to a bet if a K flops. Without position, I'm check/calling to the turn and checking/folding to a bet unimproved.

That's it -- I don't think that pays unless you've got at least a backdoor draw. You're getting your A or Q on the turn about 1/8 times. True, you're often getting 7-to-1 or 8-to-1 at this point, but I think more of your outs are tainted than you might realize.

-Bets e.g. on a T58 flop could well be AT, A5, A8, wrecking your ace if it hits.
-If the action has made AK a realistic possibility, you're obviously in trouble.
-You're drawing dead the usual number of times

I guess the overall point is that drawing to a pair is very iffy. The Qs are obviously solid, but I would downgrade the 6 outs to about 4.5 ... meaning you need >10 to 1.

There's something to be said, I think, for betting this one out unimproved from any position. You get the added benefit of being the leader, which may compensate for your hand's weakness.

[Strung]

I don't have the exact numbers since I'm at work but AQ is a pretty solid winner for me. Infact even AJ is solid (although I'm more incline to limp this EP) I think you are giving up too easily on it if you are folding the flop unimproved. If it's HU and you're only against the BB I can maybe see folding, especially if a K drops but otherwise I think you should at least see the turn unless you're bet into and it's then raised to you.

I actually don't bet into people flop unimproved unless I think the guys will fold, so it's maybe 20-25% of the time. Most of the time I'm checking.

The hand I'm having the most trouble with KQ. I don't think it's a huge loser but it's more break even. I think it's more a problem at .5/1 where I'm playing because players at this level are more inclined to cold call with Ace anything.

[Element187]

Ick I think I found it: lots of "folded after turn" entries .. many of these are check-calls when my AQ is overcards-only. Blech; I thought I never did that shit. PT rules.

I don't understand, you are folding on the turn when you haven't improved? Isn't this the way you are supposed to play it?

The way I usually play AQ is this:

I'll usually open it up for a raise in an position. I might limp it if I'm in CO or Button and everyone else has called but against 2 - 4 limpers I'll raise it.

Against a raise, fold it unless I'm button or SB and I'm raised from CO/button. If I want to play in SB I'll probably 3-bet.

Against 2-3 with position unimproved I'll probably bet the flop unimproved or check it depends if I think these guys will fold. I'll fold it to a bet if a K flops. Without position, I'm check/calling to the turn and checking/folding to a bet unimproved. Sometimes I'll fire a bet if I'm HU.

limping on CO or button with AQ when its folded to you is weak play .. raise to try and steal the blinds...by limping your giving the SB huge odds to call the BB and outdraw you with garbage, and giving the BB infinite odds to flop a monster against you.. better to win a small pot then lose a big one. if the SB or BB suspects a steal they may call with anything, so your punishing them for calling with garbage. you have to give your opponents the chance to make a mistake, by limping your encouraging them to make the right decision.

[Strung]

You mis-read it Element, I'll limp it CO or button if everyone else has called ie: I have 6 or 7 callers. You're damn right I'm raising it Co/button if it's folded to me.

[I_got_the_nuts]

Limping with AQ? Doing so and you are leaving the door open for all kinds of garbage to beat you!!

[koolmoe]

You mis-read it Element, I'll limp it CO or button if everyone else has called ie: I have 6 or 7 callers.

Screw that. I'd raise it for value. Plus you'll have initiative postflop.

I like AQo less when there is a raise in front of me, not when it's been limped to me.

[Element187]

You mis-read it Element, I'll limp it CO or button if everyone else has called ie: I have 6 or 7 callers. You're damn right I'm raising it Co/button if it's folded to me.

sorry, writing firewall rulesets the same time im replying to posts gets me confused sometimes.

[Yeldud]

LeFlou - what limits are you playing and full or 6 max?

I only play full ring and am at .5/1 and for what it is worth, here is how I typically play AQo.

UTG and UTG+1 - I throw it away.

MP and on, I will open with a raise, regardless if it has been folded or limped to me. If the pot has been raised before me, I use my reads on the raiser, but I now like AQo less and less.

From the blinds - if I suspect a steal attempt, I will often raise back and fire out on the flop.

[I_got_the_nuts]

I misunderstood what you were saying as well. Sorry about the previous post, scratch that comment from me, although even against a field of that many people and given your position, a raise is still the best play here in my mind, u gotta believe you have the best hand going to flop if it is limped all the way to you on the button, even though the "schooling effect" could take effect post flop.

[LeFou]

AQ is a pretty solid winner for me. Infact even AJ is solid

AJo, technically a lower starting hand, is a "better" hand in terms of profit because it's much easier to get away from. AJo is one of my most profitable offsuit holdings 'cause when it misses you go no further. Always.

LeFlou - what limits are you playing and full or 6 max?

1/2 full ring.

I only play full ring and am at .5/1 and for what it is worth, here is how I typically play AQo.

UTG and UTG+1 - I throw it away.

?!?!?!?
or did you mean .5/1K? i.e. $500/$1,000. 'Cause I'd agree with you there.

SSH advocates a call early with AK-ATo, playing AKo and AQo for a raise early. That's the "Loose Games" rec.

For tight games he still says AKo-AJo are okay

Where are you playing that you need to be this tight?

From the blinds - if I suspect a steal attempt, I will often raise back and fire out on the flop.

Agreed. Great re-stealing hand.

[ChezJ]

raise AQ for value in any position against any number of limpers. if you hit TPTK on the flop or turn, you will often get paid hugely.

folding in EP at 0.50/1 is just plain wrong.

[Yeldud]

LeFlou - I really meant .5/1 - very tight, but let me explain. Over a period of 500 hands (small sample I know, but it is what I had to work with) I looked at my stats and they were HORRIBLE. I looked back at my hands and found I was going too far with marginal hands AQo, ATo, etc.

I vowed to myself to tighten up my game and perhaps I am too tight at this point, but I can not argue with the results. Over the last 1K hands I have been running at 4BB/100 (again I know the sample size is small). I elimanted playing marginal hands and worked on my read ability and post flop play. As these two aspects of my game have gotten better, I have slowly added marginal hands back into my game as I strongly believe these hands are dependent on reads and post flop play.

Specifically, with AQ and AT I found my self raising from UTG/UTG+1, getting re-raised, calling, hitting an A or Q on the flop, then busting out to AK or someone holding KK.

Does this help my theory any? Not to hi-jack your post, but I would be interested to hear any comments on my startegy to tighten up like I did. Maybe it is too tight, but again the numbers are tough to argue - minus the sample size.

[ChezJ]

AQ is not marginal, it is premium. but AT is definitely marginal.

if you are reraised with AQ in EP, you are clearly in trouble. don't fold but go into check-call mode.

the few times you lose a few extra chips with AQ to AK or KK should be covered by the many times you win very large pots with AQ vs AJ/A2/QT/Q3/etc. assuming you raise pre flop.

[Yeldud]

folding in EP at 0.50/1 is just plain wrong.

Why? If there are any decent players after you and you are raised back, you are most likely dominated, and out of position post flop.

[ChezJ]

because bad players will cold call you with AJ/AT/QT/75s/43/etc. this is 0.50/1 we are talking about.

[LeFou]

I can certainly dig playing ultra-tight, ultra-loose or whatever as a ... whatchamacalit ... "practice technique" to fix/improve yr game. Like Negreanu's "fun day" (he plays every hand to the flop, to work on his postflop play)

Sounds like I'm about where you were ... discovering I go to far w/AQo. But I don't think the flop is too far.

Other thoughts

-"busting out" ?
-your sample size of 500 hands was way to small to even start looking for leaks. I personally can't complain about my overall drag (8.5/100 over 14K -- knock on wood) .. but I've only got 3K in the dB and I suspect that's just not enough.
-who's LeFlou?

(all in good fun)

[LeFou]

folding in EP at 0.50/1 is just plain wrong.

Why? If there are any decent players after you and you are raised back, you are most likely dominated, and out of position post flop.

If there are ANY mediocre players behind you, their dead money will make up for those (rare) situations where you're dominated.

[pokerfanatic]

folding in EP at 0.50/1 is just plain wrong.

Why? If there are any decent players after you and you are raised back, you are most likely dominated, and out of position post flop.

Have you played .5/1? how often does this happen, if a solid player raises an EP raise that player is most likely got something bettor then your AQo (at best you are looking at a coin flip), I agree with your statement there but what I don't agree with is the fact that you forget that even the Taggs at .5/1 will sometimes 3bet AJs in this spot, so I agree with ChezJ that you can't auto muck the hand JUST because of the raise... just have to be more careful with it from EP, you need something to help play this hand from EP, seems that the hand might be getting over valued a little from EP, kind of like AK unimproved or TT-JJ all about the same mistake can be made (i have done it as we all know)...

[Yeldud]

because bad players will cold call you with AJ/AT/QT/75s/43/etc. this is 0.50/1 we are talking about.

Agrred - it is the decent players I am worried about. Like I wrote, I am probably being too tight, but I have re-tooled my game froma few months back - which is why all this help/advice is greatly appreciated.

What about AJo?

[ChezJ]

to me, AJo is one of those teeter-totter borderline hands that i sometimes raise and sometimes limp. it all depends on how bad i think my opposition is. very tricky hand. i would certainly welcome some intelligent debate on AJo.

[|~|ypermegachi]

i raise AJo UTG at a full table, in all games. in loose games my hand is far better than the average hand, and at a tight game i want people folding who share some of my outs.

post some of your AQ hands, and not just the losing ones.

[Fnord]

In the last week I'm running .9BB/hand net +$252.51 with AQo. It's a good hand.

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Fnord is CO with Q, A.
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, 2 folds, MP2 raises, 1 fold, Fnord 3-bets, 3 folds, UTG+1 calls, MP2 caps, Fnord calls, UTG+1 calls.

Flop: (13.33 SB) T, 4, 7 (3 players)
UTG+1 checks, MP2 bets, Fnord calls, UTG+1 calls.

Turn: (8.16 BB) A (3 players)
UTG+1 checks, MP2 bets, Fnord raises, UTG+1 calls, MP2 calls.

River: (14.16 BB) 8 (3 players)
UTG+1 checks, MP2 checks, Fnord bets, UTG+1 folds, MP2 calls.

Final Pot: 16.16 BB

Results in white below:
MP2 has Jh Jc (one pair, jacks).
Fnord has Qd Ac (one pair, aces).
Outcome: Fnord wins 16.16 BB.

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Fnord is UTG+1 with Q, A.
1 fold, Fnord raises, 3 folds, MP3 calls, 3 folds, BB calls.

Flop: (6.33 SB) T, 8, K (3 players)
BB bets, Fnord calls, MP3 calls.

Turn: (4.66 BB) J (3 players)
BB bets, Fnord raises, MP3 calls, BB 3-bets, Fnord caps, MP3 folds, BB calls.

River: (14.66 BB) J (2 players)
BB bets, Fnord calls.

Final Pot: 16.66 BB

Results in white below:
BB has Ks 8d (two pair, kings and jacks).
Fnord has Qc As (straight, ace high).
Outcome: Fnord wins 16.66 BB.

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Fnord is BB with A, Q.
UTG raises, UTG+1 calls, 3 folds, MP3 calls, 3 folds, Fnord 3-bets, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP3 calls.

Flop: (12.33 SB) T, J, 9 (4 players)
Fnord bets, UTG folds, UTG+1 raises, MP3 folds, Fnord 3-bets, UTG+1 caps, Fnord calls.

Turn: (10.16 BB) 8 (2 players)
Fnord checks, UTG+1 bets, Fnord raises, UTG+1 3-bets, Fnord calls.

River: (16.16 BB) 3 (2 players)
Fnord bets, UTG+1 raises, Fnord 3-bets, UTG+1 caps, Fnord calls.

Final Pot: 24.16 BB

Results in white below:
Fnord has Ad Qd (flush, ace high).
UTG+1 has Qs Kc (straight, king high).
Outcome: Fnord wins 24.16 BB.

[I_got_the_nuts]

I usually raise with AJo everywhere but EP, there is just too many oppenents left to act to assume you have the best hand, but I play pretty tight up in front.

[elipsesjeff]

There wouldn't be an argument if everyone followed SSH's tight table guidelines.

[LeFou]

Your second hand:

Flop: (6.33 SB) T, 8, K (3 players)
BB bets, Fnord calls, MP3 calls.

Turn: (4.66 BB) J (3 players)
BB bets, Fnord raises, MP3 calls, BB 3-bets, Fnord caps, MP3 folds, BB calls.

River: (14.66 BB) J (2 players)
BB bets, Fnord calls.

Final Pot: 16.66 BB

I'm not feelin' the flush here; isn't this good for one more?

[I_got_the_nuts]

There wouldn't be an argument if everyone followed SSH's tight table guidelines.




Thats undoubtably a great guideline from a great book, but I'm not sold on raising from UTG with TT which, if not mistaken, is what they recommend for tight games.

[LeFou]

it says AA-TT raise from "early" -- first 3 seats to the left. Presumably you can adjust the rec so that, e.g. you don't raise from the absolute worst seat with the worst raisable pair.

[Fnord]

Thats undoubtably a great guideline from a great book, but I'm not sold on raising from UTG with TT which, if not mistaken, is what they recommend for tight games.

I'd rather have TT there than AQ. In most games I'm raising 88 and 99 UTG as well. Sometimes 77 and 66 too. *cackle*

[Ayce]

At 3/6 most folk who made that river bet would have AQ, flush, boat or bluff so a raise will either be met with a fold or a reraise.

[elipsesjeff]

Thats undoubtably a great guideline from a great book, but I'm not sold on raising from UTG with TT which, if not mistaken, is what they recommend for tight games.

Yes, they do recommend it. And, who is the better player, you or them? TT will win you many pots with agression alone, its got lots of redraw values and the times you hit your set you will get paid off. If you dont want to raise 99 or 88 thats understandable in my opinion

But TT is a must raise/3bet from any position, and its a leak if you dont.

Dont listen to me, fnord, or anyone else. if you are going to listen to someone, Sklansky is your man.

[I_got_the_nuts]

I hope you were joking about 77-66, but I somehow think you're not. Thats not a shot, but how many times do you actually win when you don't hit the set? We are talking full ring right?


You'd take TT over AQ under the gun? 2 outs to improve a made good hand vs. 6 to improve to what would be alot stronger, not to mention the ability to hit the nut straight/flush? Thats exactly why I hate raising this hand. Everytime I pick up TT in EP and raise, I get the standard amount of cold callers to follow, but everytime, the board comes A92, Q65 or K74, and you know fish, can't bring themselves to fold paint no matter how many raises they're faced with. Continuing past these flops is almost always out to the question. You almost have to hit the set to win with this hand it seems. I hate this hand!!

[LeFou]

You'd take TT over AQ under the gun?

All day. All night. I'd wake up early to take it.

Everytime I pick up TT in EP and raise, I get the standard amount of cold callers to follow, but everytime, the board comes A92, Q65 or K74 ..

Oh, I guess if that actually happens every time then you're right.

[elipsesjeff]

I dont raise 66 or 77, but TT everytime. TT gives you a legimate chance to win everyhand and you raise for value, not to limit the field. You have TPTK on all flops that are 9 or under. The people that don't fold are the same people that will pay you off when you do hit your set. You also have the advantage of being first to act and can represent any card that comes out there. Pay attention to your opponents and know what kind of hands they will be cold calling with.

TT will not win every hand, or close to it. But it WILL win its fair share and the ones that are won are usually big pots.

I'll take a made hand vs a draw anyday.

And, regarding 66-77, Fnord raises these hands because he can and knows how to play them. LHE is a game of small edges and you must take advantage of everyone you can get.

[Fnord]

And, regarding 66-77, Fnord raises these hands because he can and knows how to play them. LHE is a game of small edges and you must take advantage of everyone you can get.

Most importantly, I know what tables I can get away with it at.

[koolmoe]

It's also nice if you get to showdown 66 or 77 after an UTG raise. It will help you get action with your big hands.

[I_got_the_nuts]

I think you got me all wrong Jeff. I wasn't saying this because I think I'm better than SM&M. I said that cuz I can't seem to find a way to consistently win with TT unless I hit my set. I play mostly 2/4 and even with an UTG raise I still get alot of callers, and at that point its tough for me to win. I can't speak for whatever room you play in, but on Pacific, you could jump through most of those players computer screen with a machete, they won't fold, which makes Pacific great, but with TT and 4 people still in the pot, not so good. Between them they usually have hands like Ace to Jack with a junk kicker, and when this is the case, you only have a 5% edge preflop, and thats assuming no one has 2 cards 10 or higher. It SEEMS like its not worth pushing hard with it preflop with such a small edge. I said my first post here, I've only been at HE for a couple of years now and I'm always looking to learn more all the time, thats all. If anyone knows why the push is worth it, I'm all ears, cuz I just can't understand how it can be when you know the field won't fold. I just think there are much better times to push hard with better hands in better positions.

[elipsesjeff]

I think you got me all wrong Jeff. I wasn't saying this because I think I'm better than SM&M. I said that cuz I can't seem to find a way to consistently win with TT unless I hit my set. I play mostly 2/4 and even with an UTG raise I still get alot of callers, and at that point its tough for me to win. I can't speak for whatever room you play in, but on Pacific, you could jump through most of those players computer screen with a machete, they won't fold, which makes Pacific great, but with TT and 4 people still in the pot, not so good. Between them they usually have hands like Ace to Jack with a junk kicker, and when this is the case, you only have a 5% edge preflop, and thats assuming no one has 2 cards 10 or higher. It SEEMS like its not worth pushing hard with it preflop with such a small edge. I said my first post here, I've only been at HE for a couple of years now and I'm always looking to learn more all the time, thats all. If anyone knows why the push is worth it, I'm all ears, cuz I just can't understand how it can be when you know the field won't fold. I just think there are much better times to push hard with better hands in better positions.

You forget, you arent raising to thin the field, you are raising for value. You raise because your hand is better, significantly better. Cold callers generally have 2 or three types of hands:

Baby pockets: Which you have destroyed and will most likely fold on the flop or turn if they dont hit a set.

Offsuit broadway junk: You have to love these guys, the outs they do have are shared most likely with the rest of people in the pot.

Ace X, and King X suited: You know the type, they love those suited cards and can't lay them down if they had to.

Learn to read the board, if you have TT and 4 people call and the flop is Ace high, chances are you are dogged, but do you check? No. Bet out, represent that ace like its yours. Its not your fault that your opponents don't know how to play. If you are raised, call the one bet and hope you improve on the turn. If you dont and its not HU, then you can fold.

One day you will realize how great a thing cold callers really are. Until then, you'll continue to be passive I guess.

[elipsesjeff]

My stats on AQo at 5/10:

109 times, win $56%, Net $847, 1.08 BB/Hand, vPIP 89, PFR 84.

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is UTG+2 with Q, A.
UTG calls, 1 fold, Hero raises, 2 folds, MP3 calls, 3 folds, BB calls, UTG calls.

Flop: (8.40 SB) J, 5, 9 (4 players)
BB checks, UTG bets, Hero raises, MP3 calls, BB calls, UTG calls.

Turn: (8.20 BB) Q (4 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, Hero bets, MP3 folds, BB calls, UTG calls.

River: (11.20 BB) 4 (3 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, Hero bets, BB calls, UTG calls.

Final Pot: 14.20 BB

Results in white below:
BB has 9d 6h (one pair, nines).
UTG has Tc Th (one pair, tens).
Hero has Qh As (one pair, queens).
Outcome: Hero wins 14.20 BB.


My stats with AQo at 2/4:

71 times, 63% win, Net $391, 1.38 BB/Hand, 97.18 VPIP, 92 PFR.

AQo in EP at 2/4:

27 times, win 51%, .33 BB/hand, 96.3 VPIP, PFR 92.59. WSD 54, W$SD 38.46.

TT in EP at 2/4:

10 hands, win 50%, .28 BB/hand, 100 vpip, 100 pfr. WSD 50, W$SD 40.
ZERO SETS.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is UTG+2 with T, T.
2 folds, Hero raises, MP1 calls, 1 fold, MP3 calls, 4 folds.

Flop: (7.50 SB) 2, 9, A (3 players)
Hero bets, MP1 folds, MP3 folds.

Final Pot: 4.25 BB

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with T, T.
UTG calls, Hero raises, [color:#666666]6 folds[/color], BB =#A500AF(Mike4066)/ calls, UTG calls.

Flop: (6.50 SB) J, 4, 8 [color:#0000FF](3 players)[/color]
Mike4066 bets, UTG calls, Hero raises, Mike4066 calls, UTG calls.

Turn: (6.25 BB) 3 (3 players)
Mike4066 checks, UTG checks, Hero checks.

River: (6.25 BB) 6 (3 players)
Mike4066 bets, UTG folds, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 8.25 BB

Results in white below:
Mike4066 has Jc Kc (flush, king high).
Hero has Td Ts (one pair, tens).
Outcome: Mike4066 wins 8.25 BB.

[Nehmer]

Speaking for myself, AQo and TT are two of my most profitable hands(as they should be). AQo wins me .52 BB per hand and .94BB per hand with TT. With this in mind, I think it is obvious that I would much rather have TT to raise with UTG than AQo. The thing about raising early with TT is that if you only get 1 or 2 callers preflop, you are going to finish with the best hand the majority of the time. If you get a lot of callers preflop, then you still have good set potential heading into what is going to be a HUGE pot. This is a very good situation to be in. Not raising TT preflop or even 3-betting it is definately a huge mistake from any position.

[LeFou]

The question is, versus 3 opps do your tens win >25% of the time. Hell yes -- first of all they set 12.5% of the time.

For simplicity assume 3 opps holding Axs, Kxs, and Q9s. So they've each got a card that can flop to beat you.

(I think I have the math right) card X will flop 1-(47*50)*(46*50)*(45*50) = 1-0.778 = 22%
Odds there will be NO A, K, or Q on the flop: 1 - (22 X 3) ... 34%

NB: of those 66% of flops with an overcard, about 8% are going to have tens in them. (that's 2/3 of 12%, 'cause one of the three cards is not a ten)

Anyway, I see a little more than 5% edge here. Not a whole lot more, but as Jeff said it's a value raise for sure.

[I_got_the_nuts]

Last night I actually decided I would try and be ultra aggressive with these hands and see where it took me. I have to say, I was suprised with the results. Picked up TT UTG+1 in like my 3rd orbit into the session and played it like I had pocket Aces (ended up capping it, not my norm for sure, doubly so cuz I have only a few real good reads at this point). Flop comes A-4-4, and I bet into it, 1 fold 1 call. Turn is another Ace, I check, he bets, I raise, he folds. I see him chatting with another player after the hand, bitching everytime he picks up QQ, someone else has an Ace high monster that hits the flop (online poker is rigged tangent) Not sure if thats what he really had or not, but I hope to christ he did, cuz that alone would have made my session. Tried it again later on with 99 this time UTG (at this point im up like 30BB in the first 2 hours, feeling a little too good maybe?), and I would have won that one too had he not totally overplayed his 44 (he actually reraised me with this PF from the button, so I put him on 2 bigs) and hit his set on the river of all places. These are best case scenarios from only two hands of course, and I could have been in alot of trouble on the first one, but all in all, I gotta say, Fnord, Jeff, and anyone else who said I was crazy for not playing TT aggressively, I thank you, yesterday's whole conversation got me thinking about my game in general, and about possible missed opportunities out there. I always felt like I was being aggressive in the right times right places since I haven't had a losing session in almost a year, (not sure if thats good or just average) but it got me thinking, I play pretty straightforward aggressive, and I could probably win more if I mixed it up with a bit more tricky aggression, especially when it comes down to 3 or less left in the pot. I guess I don't think about what they think I might have as much as I should, since most of these online guys are doing about 10 things at the same time as trying to play poker not really paying attention, so it seemed so futile to make them believe I have something I don't. I never would have pulled a kamakazie stunt like that with TT and all the different things he might have had here before, but I think I just might start. In any case, I've realized I was disillusioned about some of the hands to be aggressive with and the why behind it all, and as a result, I ended up 70BB (my average is 35-40, rarely more, rarely much less) up last night. Thanks all!!

[Chicago_Kid]

This is a great thread...very good tips on AQ which I've now proven is a big leak for me. Basically, I take this hand too far when I'm out of position and/or I don't hit.

Here's another topic on KQ:

http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...6&highlight=kq

[RocktMan]

Newbie here to the forum, playing Hold'm for about a year now (low stakes). This is a great thread, beyond AQo it has improved my perspective regarding medium pairs preflop. I have been just calling midpairs PF way to much and these examples are clear reasons to fix habit (NOW).

-Great stuff.

[honsheung]

AQ is a good hand. Raise preflop in most circumstance in shorthanded table.

In full ring, i am not quite sure.

[honsheung]

AQ is not marginal, it is premium. but AT is definitely marginal.

if you are reraised with AQ in EP, you are clearly in trouble. don't fold but go into check-call mode.

the few times you lose a few extra chips with AQ to AK or KK should be covered by the many times you win very large pots with AQ vs AJ/A2/QT/Q3/etc. assuming you raise pre flop.

some people may 3bets on you with only 1010 or lower, why my AQ is in trouble ?

[ChezJ]

.... I always felt like I was being aggressive in the right times right places since I haven't had a losing session in almost a year, (not sure if thats good or just average)....

whoah. this is definitely not just average. to be honest, if you have not suffered a total blowout session or two in the last couple weeks, then you are probably not playing aggressively enough. i used to have a record like yours and thought i was a killer but it turns out i was playing totally weak-tight. too conservatively. only betting with TPGK and folding everything else, even some ok draws.

i know this is gonna sound nuts, but if you haven't lost big lately, you're not really winning enough. that is to say, short term variance (downside as well as upside) is greater for those who play more aggressively. in the long term, those who play more aggressively may not win as many POTS, but the pots they win are MUCH MUCH BIGGER.

you need to get more aggressive with your AQ and TT, not just to raise out other players, but to make the pot MUCH MUCH BIGGER when you scoop it or steal it.

ChezJ

EDIT: i take that back, those who play more aggressively DO win more pots because of their sheer aggression. like your TT vs QQ hand.

[|~|ypermegachi]

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with A, J.
UTG calls, Hero raises, 1 fold, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, 4 folds, UTG calls.

Flop: (9.50 SB) 6, 4, 9 (4 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, UTG calls.

Turn: (6.75 BB) 7 (4 players)
UTG checks, Hero checks, MP2 bets, MP3 folds, UTG calls, Hero calls.

River: (9.75 BB) 2 (3 players)
UTG checks, Hero checks, MP2 checks.

Final Pot: 9.75 BB

Results in white below:
UTG has Qc 5c (high card, queen).
Hero has Ah Js (high card, ace).
MP2 has Ks Qs (high card, king).
Outcome: Hero wins 9.75 BB.

[honsheung]

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with A, J.
UTG calls, Hero raises, 1 fold, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, 4 folds, UTG calls.

Flop: (9.50 SB) 6, 4, 9 (4 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, UTG calls.

Turn: (6.75 BB) 7 (4 players)
UTG checks, Hero checks, MP2 bets, MP3 folds, UTG calls, Hero calls.

River: (9.75 BB) 2 (3 players)
UTG checks, Hero checks, MP2 checks.

Final Pot: 9.75 BB

Results in white below:
UTG has Qc 5c (high card, queen).
Hero has Ah Js (high card, ace).
MP2 has Ks Qs (high card, king).
Outcome: Hero wins 9.75 BB.

Thanks for posting, hyper.
I have a question , please answer.

In you hand, I used to bet bet in flop becase i am the preflop aggressor , hoping they will fold ,or at least thin the field.
Am I right ? I see ou check in flop.What is the correct play?

[honsheung]

Sorry , wrong questions.
you bet in the flop .

So the norm is to bet in the flop again?
No check in flop ?

Why ?

[Fnord]

You know, you can edit your posts. Also, avoid quotes longer than your additional content...

[honsheung]

Ok, thanks for advice

[|~|ypermegachi]

90% of the time i will follow up my preflop raise with a bet on the flop.

the other 10% when i'm out of position and there are more than 4 people seeing the flop, and i don't hit the flop.

the AJo hand i posted is basically borderline. i usually bet anyway, but sometimes i'll check it.

[LeFou]

avoid quotes longer than your additional content...

ok