[5NL] KQo, 3bet pot, river decision.

[Cobra_1878]

Villain was 49/33/6 (3bet) through 211 hands. Fold to 3bet, 38%, 3/8. Fold to cbet, 18%, 2/11. Donked flop 17%, 4/23.

Had a few notes on villain. His range is obviously pretty wide, he was capable of raising on turns as pure bluffs, continuing on river with 1/2 PSB's.

Plays draws pretty aggressively, 2x raise on flop with OESD before PSB on turn and then calling a 3x raise and checking river when missing.

Had seen him just call 3bets with JJ, shoving on a QQ44 board.

Called 3bets OOP with JJ & 86o. He seemed to like donking the flop if he had TP or better.

PokerStars - $0.05 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

Hero (CO): $5.15
BTN: $2.42
SB: $9.27
BB: $8.28
UTG: $5.30
MP: $3.89

SB posts SB $0.02, BB posts BB $0.05

Pre Flop: (pot: $0.07) Hero has Q K

fold, MP raises to $0.15, Hero raises to $0.50, fold, fold, fold, MP calls $0.35

Flop: ($1.07, 2 players) T Q 7
MP checks, Hero bets $0.75, MP calls $0.75

Turn: ($2.57, 2 players) 2
MP checks, Hero checks

River: ($2.57, 2 players) 4
MP bets $2.64 and is all-in, Hero ???

Not really sure where to start with this hand? How do you put a 49/33 on a range?

[Savy]

Why don't you bet the turn? Villain strikes me as the type of person who will shove that river a lot when he senses possible weakness to the flush.

Also I think you need to be more aware of your bet sizing, after your bet on the flop you have to be aware that you're getting it in with how little he has left. You've actually set it up nicely for him to shove on the river and leave it awkward for you.

I'd probably call as Villain seems all over the place, especially if you've seen him bluffing a lot.

[Cobra_1878]

Why don't you bet the turn? Villain strikes me as the type of person who will shove that river a lot when he senses possible weakness to the flush.

Also I think you need to be more aware of your bet sizing, after your bet on the flop you have to be aware that you're getting it in with how little he has left. You've actually set it up nicely for him to shove on the river and leave it awkward for you.

I'd probably call as Villain seems all over the place, especially if you've seen him bluffing a lot.

I didn't bet the turn in case he had made a flush, I am obviously happy to get it in with this villain on any non spade or A turn card otherwise I wouldn't bet so much on the flop.

@bold - That's not always true. Plenty of villains at 5NL will happily put 30-50% of their stack in on the flop and then fold the turn, it happens all the time. I would imagine you know this from 2NL.

[Savy]

You're either getting it in or getting no more money into the pot. Being scared of him hitting the flush is also silly because then this happens and as I said he's the perfect candidate for doing it.

[surviva316]

Flop sizing is bad. Shove turn. As played, call.

This thread is probably a sign that you're not playing for near enough value in a ton of situations against fish.

[Cobra_1878]

Flop sizing is bad. Shove turn. As played, call.

This thread is probably a sign that you're not playing for near enough value in a ton of situations against fish.

Recommended flop size?

I can't play villains like this (49/33) as I have no idea what they could have. They could have ATC and I have, in this situation, a marginal hand.

[Savy]

If you don't know how to play against him then don't 3bet him with the bottom of your range?

[daviddem]

One more time: standard flop sizing in 3b pot is about 1/2 pot, even less as he is short. However, there is not much wrong with betting more for value on this wet flop if villain will continue with junk. However if you leave just one PSB behind, you pretty much have to shove any turn except maybe a truly horrible card like As.

Shove turn and be done with it imo. This guy folds 18% to flop cbets, he's calling the flop with just about anything, not just flush draws (which he would probably c/r anyway). He probably calls a turn shove with worse top pairs, FD + 1 over, straight draws, and maybe second pair.

As played call river. Since you checked the turn behind he can be shoving the river with anything because he thinks you missed the flop, cbet-bluff then gave up, and he thinks he can get an easy fold when he shoves.

[Cobra_1878]

If you don't know how to play against him then don't 3bet him with the bottom of your range?

I am 3betting for pure value, why would I not do that? I shouldn't say I "don't know" how to, more like I am uncomfortable playing these types of villains in pots.

I am just not happy on this flop against this villain with my hand.

[Savy]

Someone who has loads of air in his range you shouldn't mind value betting TPGK.

[d0zer]

I can't play villains like this (49/33) as I have no idea what they could have. They could have ATC and I have, in this situation, a marginal hand.

Why don't you plug ATC into pokerstove and see how well it does against KQ. Oh, but he probably doesn't actually have ATC on this turn you say? Well then, narrow his range a bit and try the exercise again.

[Cobra_1878]

Someone who has loads of air in his range you shouldn't mind value betting TPGK.

Normally I wouldn't, but on this board I'm just not happy with it. If it comes Q84r or Q74tt I am much happier. QT7tt is just not a nice looking board for me against this villain.

I do agree though that the check on turn is super bad, the more I think about it the more I am unhappy with it.

[d0zer]

I am 3betting for pure value, why would I not do that? I shouldn't say I "don't know" how to, more like I am uncomfortable playing these types of villains in pots.

I am just not happy on this flop against this villain with my hand.

If you're not happy with your top pair in a 3b pot then don't 3bet for value because the implication of unhappiness is that you've overly narrowed villain's range with the 3bet.

That being said, you should be happy with your hand here because villain clearly doesn't like folding to 3bets or folding to c-bets.

If you want a flop calling range, how about a million straight draws, flush draws, every imaginable pair, Ahi with a spade. Probably even wider but that should be all you need to be happy.

[Cobra_1878]

If you're not happy with your top pair in a 3b pot then don't 3bet for value because the implication of unhappiness is that you've overly narrowed villain's range with the 3bet.

That being said, you should be happy with your hand here because villain clearly doesn't like folding to 3bets or folding to c-bets.

If you want a flop calling range, how about a million straight draws, flush draws, every imaginable pair, Ahi with a spade. Probably even wider but that should be all you need to be happy.

OK, OK, I get it. I am probably giving these types of villains way too much credit, points taken.

[surviva316]

When I said flop sizing is bad, I mean that you shouldn't end up with just barely more than a PSB left in his stack. One option, I guess, is to go waaaay smaller, but that seems silly. Anything $0.85+ is good to get it in cleanly on two streets (shoving 2.54 into a pot of 2.77). I'd probably just go $0.95 figuring he's going to loathe folding any broadways and pairs and draws on the flop and then he'll feel all the more committed on the turn.

Anyway, I think it's really really really good that you posted this hand, and I would really heed d0zer here. You're going to make your money by learning how to vbet people who call too wide, and it takes a while for people to realize that AT is maybe more of a decision hand here than KQ.

[griffey24]

Don't think you included his AF, but given that he shoved JJ in that particular spot I'd assume he's not overly passive.

In that case, certainly some of his FD's will be raising the flop.

After checking back the turn, I'm for sure calling this river. I would bet turn though. In a 3b pot with smaller SPR's, you can't be afraid of flushes as much as in single raised pots.

[rpm]

stick it in on the turn imo. never folding river vs villain as described

[baudib]

I think pretty much everyone in the thread has nailed it here. It's sort of like you get it but not quite....you realize that you can 3-bet KQo purely for value because he is opening super wide and doesn't fold to 3-bets but you don't realize you should be playing for stacks when you flop TPGK. He doesn't fold flops and he plays draws aggressively so the 2s is not really a scare card...shove turn and he's for sure calling with a naked Js.

as played obv. call river.